7 ms·

Sometime around my Junior year of college my goals shifted from "I'm here because I want to learn" to "I'm here because I want a job". I was surprised to find t

Sometime around my Junior year of college my goals shifted from "I'm here because I want to learn" to "I'm here because I want a job". I was surprised to find that doing well at learning (getting As) not only wasn't good enough for an entry level job, it wasn't even really correlated. The more time I spent on coursework the less time I had to grind through interview questions. I wonder if there are any other industries like this.

analog31 5y ago
Symphonic musician. The first stage is nailing a blind audition, perfectly.
- fortran77 5y ago
  Not anymore! Blind auditions are now a thing of the past: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition... However, since you can't choose your parents or where you were born, there's little you can do to prepare for the Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity goals. (I could probably get a lift by changing my religion. People with the exact same ethnicity and appearance as me but of a different faith are considered "people of color" by most DEI committees) I started out wanting a career in music but quickly switched to a math major. While I still perform at amateur recitals, I'm glad I didn't try to prusue a professional career.
  - gjm11 5y ago
    That article is behind the NYT paywall but the bit of it I could see appears to be saying not that > blind auditions are now a thing of the past but that they should become a thing of the past, so that orchestras can ensure that their makeup (race, gender, etc.) matches that of "the communities they serve". There's a big difference between "one person writing in the New York Times thinks orchestras should stop doing blind auditions" and "blind auditions are now a thing of the past".
    - fortran77 5y ago
      It is already happening. For example: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/buffalo-philharmonic-no-white-or-asian-conductors-need-apply/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/buffalo-philharmonic-...
      - gjm11 5y ago
        That article doesn't give one single example of an orchestra that isn't using blind auditions any more. It does give one single example of something, namely an orchestra looking to appoint something like an assistant conductor (that isn't the job title; the article claims it's an equivalent post; I haven't attempted to find out whether they're right) specifically from the non-white non-Asian population. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's a bad thing, but it has nothing to do with an alleged end of blind auditions: you literally cannot give an orchestra conductor a blind audition. (When I say "one single example", I mean it; the article suggests that this sort of thing is becoming common, and for all I know it may be, but it doesn't deign to give any actual evidence other than this one example, along with a link to the same NYTimes article asking for an end to blind auditions.)
    - shagie 5y ago
      Unlocked - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWma3DKDm8ciO0PH5PH_lrWZKEkbd8y2TjeTcJNMaMuQ_ppi-hFNExgUBWyq4DBgp0OLmM1tYe3FCsQ7q76YIoZo3Xsf3Xrb6B23qG-tBaLd2DrXvPUgiZ2OAkx8pF6cVmhjWgCzqbFDrF234IpjvggUs0sRiwSJ3Xf54meABp5Pt6EaBvc-1N2D7kfAWeP6Ibav7EQcwxSCkbET2d_5ws869BaOtAXNMXvPkJqOZq-0fhKVDsefMr-DIYxRoPUi7xrrbXGzBeMw8e3zP49f75G6h5LmG215YikftynscCgig&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
  - beepbeepnewnew 5y ago
    Even though blind auditions are less and less, I do want to add to analog's point that orchestras don't care about anything except for how well you can nail a huge group of assorted excerpts and whether or not you suffer from anxiety that may affect your performance. Plenty of great musicians just never get a job because they get a lot of anxiety or don't have the patience to practice the same 12 measures of music for 12 years hoping that the audition they takes asks them for that. Orchestra excerpts are just leetcode for musicians, and just as lacking in testing the real qualities of good workers, artists, and people.
  - madengr 5y ago
  - eezurr 5y ago
    Good intentions, terrible execution (if implemented). This is communism for social currency. In fact, I'll wager this will develop and become _the_ modern form of communism in the next decade or two (in the US/West), provided the following remains true: We (continue to) live in an a world of abundant material resources. And, we (continue to) live in a world of limited social resources (and likely always will). Anyways, my thoughts on the matter as musician/composer. The people that deserve to be in an orchestra are the ones who work the hardest towards achieving goal, and have the talent to fulfill the requirements of that position. It is an incredibly competitive, limited position and would be massively unfair if people were favored/unfavored for admission because of the color of their skin (hmmm...). I think that would create a lot inter-orchestra tension (which is already sky high because of how competitive it is[0]). Decades of sweat equity will be thrown out the door (most start playing while still a single digit in age). 45% or more of classical musicians end up leaving the career because they cant earn enough money to survive. [1] It's already an impossible discipline to succeed in, regardless of your background. It is deplorable to shift and count colored beans on an abacus to keep track of an organizations social currency, particularly when that organization has blind admissions. There is not a non-obsessive, wont-be-abused-by-those-who-count way to implement such a gate keeper. Blind auditions solve all these problems, and bring together the most talented people in the world to work together for the benefit of every member of the audience, without the racist undertones. [0] I used to play with Juilliard musicians. They have plenty of horror stories to tell, such as the time when the NYC Phil woodwinds tallied mistakes made by other musicians during practice. Or when one of the famous string quartets' members refused to stay in the same hotel together. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/the-juilliard-effect-ten-years-later.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/the-juilliard-...
jmchuster 5y ago
I was also CS undergrad. I see it more as a choice between industry or academia. Junior year i also had to make that decision. For industry, that then meant getting into internships, which then translated into job offers. You needed a minimum level of grades, say, 3.0, and needed to have classes on your transcript that looked more like industry software engineering, say, operating systems, databases, design. Companies cared more about clubs, extracurriculars, side projects, and of course you needed to be able to pass your interview questions. While, if i was going for grad school instead, then i'd need a 4.0, start taking grad school classes, start talking with professors, try to get a job as a research assistant, try to find a professor that i could latch onto and start working with. And that was a path i had considered at some point, when i really did enjoy taking hard classes, going in deep, and pushing the edges of my learning.
hnfong 5y ago
I think getting As correlates pretty well with grinding through interview questions. Perhaps not the same type of questions, but it's still "learning standardized skills from a prescribed area of study". I don't think most algorithm interviews correlate with what you actually do on the job though. There's a lot more communication (eg trying to figure out what the boss/client/pm really wants, explaining non-trivial concepts to impatient/bored colleagues, or trying to convince other people that your "crazy" idea is actually sane), and a lot less hard problems thrown "in your face" (eg. prove that there is no solution for a^n + b^n = c^n where n > 2), but a lot more hidden traps that don't show themselves until something blows up in production (eg. turns out a minor version difference of python triggered a serious outage).

analog31 5y ago

Symphonic musician. The first stage is nailing a blind audition, perfectly.

fortran77 5y ago
Not anymore! Blind auditions are now a thing of the past: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition... However, since you can't choose your parents or where you were born, there's little you can do to prepare for the Diversity, Inclusion, and Equity goals. (I could probably get a lift by changing my religion. People with the exact same ethnicity and appearance as me but of a different faith are considered "people of color" by most DEI committees) I started out wanting a career in music but quickly switched to a math major. While I still perform at amateur recitals, I'm glad I didn't try to prusue a professional career.
- gjm11 5y ago
  That article is behind the NYT paywall but the bit of it I could see appears to be saying not that > blind auditions are now a thing of the past but that they should become a thing of the past, so that orchestras can ensure that their makeup (race, gender, etc.) matches that of "the communities they serve". There's a big difference between "one person writing in the New York Times thinks orchestras should stop doing blind auditions" and "blind auditions are now a thing of the past".
  - fortran77 5y ago
    It is already happening. For example: https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/buffalo-philharmonic-no-white-or-asian-conductors-need-apply/ https://www.nationalreview.com/2021/09/buffalo-philharmonic-...
    - gjm11 5y ago
      That article doesn't give one single example of an orchestra that isn't using blind auditions any more. It does give one single example of something, namely an orchestra looking to appoint something like an assistant conductor (that isn't the job title; the article claims it's an equivalent post; I haven't attempted to find out whether they're right) specifically from the non-white non-Asian population. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's a bad thing, but it has nothing to do with an alleged end of blind auditions: you literally cannot give an orchestra conductor a blind audition. (When I say "one single example", I mean it; the article suggests that this sort of thing is becoming common, and for all I know it may be, but it doesn't deign to give any actual evidence other than this one example, along with a link to the same NYTimes article asking for an end to blind auditions.)
  - shagie 5y ago
    Unlocked - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-auditions-orchestras-race.html?unlocked_article_code=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACEIPuomT1JKd6J17Vw1cRCfTTMQmqxCdw_PIxftm3iWma3DKDm8ciO0PH5PH_lrWZKEkbd8y2TjeTcJNMaMuQ_ppi-hFNExgUBWyq4DBgp0OLmM1tYe3FCsQ7q76YIoZo3Xsf3Xrb6B23qG-tBaLd2DrXvPUgiZ2OAkx8pF6cVmhjWgCzqbFDrF234IpjvggUs0sRiwSJ3Xf54meABp5Pt6EaBvc-1N2D7kfAWeP6Ibav7EQcwxSCkbET2d_5ws869BaOtAXNMXvPkJqOZq-0fhKVDsefMr-DIYxRoPUi7xrrbXGzBeMw8e3zP49f75G6h5LmG215YikftynscCgig&smid=url-share https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/arts/music/blind-audition...
- beepbeepnewnew 5y ago
  Even though blind auditions are less and less, I do want to add to analog's point that orchestras don't care about anything except for how well you can nail a huge group of assorted excerpts and whether or not you suffer from anxiety that may affect your performance. Plenty of great musicians just never get a job because they get a lot of anxiety or don't have the patience to practice the same 12 measures of music for 12 years hoping that the audition they takes asks them for that. Orchestra excerpts are just leetcode for musicians, and just as lacking in testing the real qualities of good workers, artists, and people.
- madengr 5y ago
- eezurr 5y ago
  Good intentions, terrible execution (if implemented). This is communism for social currency. In fact, I'll wager this will develop and become _the_ modern form of communism in the next decade or two (in the US/West), provided the following remains true: We (continue to) live in an a world of abundant material resources. And, we (continue to) live in a world of limited social resources (and likely always will). Anyways, my thoughts on the matter as musician/composer. The people that deserve to be in an orchestra are the ones who work the hardest towards achieving goal, and have the talent to fulfill the requirements of that position. It is an incredibly competitive, limited position and would be massively unfair if people were favored/unfavored for admission because of the color of their skin (hmmm...). I think that would create a lot inter-orchestra tension (which is already sky high because of how competitive it is[0]). Decades of sweat equity will be thrown out the door (most start playing while still a single digit in age). 45% or more of classical musicians end up leaving the career because they cant earn enough money to survive. [1] It's already an impossible discipline to succeed in, regardless of your background. It is deplorable to shift and count colored beans on an abacus to keep track of an organizations social currency, particularly when that organization has blind admissions. There is not a non-obsessive, wont-be-abused-by-those-who-count way to implement such a gate keeper. Blind auditions solve all these problems, and bring together the most talented people in the world to work together for the benefit of every member of the audience, without the racist undertones. [0] I used to play with Juilliard musicians. They have plenty of horror stories to tell, such as the time when the NYC Phil woodwinds tallied mistakes made by other musicians during practice. Or when one of the famous string quartets' members refused to stay in the same hotel together. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/the-juilliard-effect-ten-years-later.html https://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/12/arts/music/the-juilliard-...

jmchuster 5y ago

I was also CS undergrad. I see it more as a choice between industry or academia. Junior year i also had to make that decision. For industry, that then meant getting into internships, which then translated into job offers. You needed a minimum level of grades, say, 3.0, and needed to have classes on your transcript that looked more like industry software engineering, say, operating systems, databases, design. Companies cared more about clubs, extracurriculars, side projects, and of course you needed to be able to pass your interview questions. While, if i was going for grad school instead, then i'd need a 4.0, start taking grad school classes, start talking with professors, try to get a job as a research assistant, try to find a professor that i could latch onto and start working with. And that was a path i had considered at some point, when i really did enjoy taking hard classes, going in deep, and pushing the edges of my learning.

hnfong 5y ago

I think getting As correlates pretty well with grinding through interview questions. Perhaps not the same type of questions, but it's still "learning standardized skills from a prescribed area of study". I don't think most algorithm interviews correlate with what you actually do on the job though. There's a lot more communication (eg trying to figure out what the boss/client/pm really wants, explaining non-trivial concepts to impatient/bored colleagues, or trying to convince other people that your "crazy" idea is actually sane), and a lot less hard problems thrown "in your face" (eg. prove that there is no solution for a^n + b^n = c^n where n > 2), but a lot more hidden traps that don't show themselves until something blows up in production (eg. turns out a minor version difference of python triggered a serious outage).