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I wonder if anyone will resurrect the classic tonewheel organ. AFAIK Hammond Suzuki is currently focusing exclusively on digital emulations and the only mechani

I wonder if anyone will resurrect the classic tonewheel organ. AFAIK Hammond Suzuki is currently focusing exclusively on digital emulations and the only mechanical devices they still produce are rotary speakers under the Leslie brand.

dspig 5y ago
I guess there are enough in existence for those that want them (and not a digital recreation). An electro-mechanical remake would maybe not be any cheaper than a restored original, and might lack (imaginary) mojo. There's a lot less going on inside a Rhodes piano.
- mastazi 5y ago
  > I guess there are enough in existence for those that want them I guess you are in North America, which is probably the only region in the world where this is the case. Here in Australia you can get a Hammond from the US but you have to pay close to 5 grands just for shipping. Back when I was in Europe it was similarly hard to get one.
klodolph 5y ago
IMO tonewheel organ simulation is a solved problem. Rhodes emulations often fall short.
- mastazi 5y ago
  Yes I can see why you would say that, however I wouldn't go as far as saying "solved". Personally, I certainly can't hear the difference between the real thing and a (good) simulation, but are we sure that if you give a Hammond to Dr. Lonnie Smith, he won't be able to tell the difference? I reckon he would.
  - klodolph 5y ago
    Why do you reckon that? The thing about the Hammond is that there are no dynamics. It was designed by a clockmaker as a very precise piece of machinery. It’s all switches and gears.
    - mastazi 5y ago
      Because I think that on a theoretical level, both el. piano and tonewheel organ are a solved problem (honestly I don't think that there are aspects of simulating a Rhodes that we're not aware of because they haven't been discovered yet). The problem comes when you actually start designing a new hardware product for the market: do you have cost constraints? What corners are you going to cut? If you aren't cutting corners, how much is the product going to cost? How large is your potential market then? If you are targeting a pro segment, among other things you would need to equip your organ with good quality DSPs and in case you go for physically based sound synthesis (which IMHO you should) I would imagine you need a good CPU + an OS with realtime kernel. For a Hammond you also have additional hardware requirements compared to a piano, e.g. good quality waterfall keyboard (not many producers out there, unlike weighted piano keyboards that are much more mainstream) and bass pedalboard (much more expensive than a keyboard for obvious structural reasons). > It was designed by a clockmaker as a very precise piece of machinery. Hammonds have all types of quirks, for example folding of the higher harmonics in the higher octaves or key click, not to mention Leslie emulation where all sorts of variables are in play such as mic positioning, speed, acceleration and deceleration of the cones... those are not unlike some piano quirks such as sympathetic resonance, which are not straight forward to emulate in a credible way. In the end, instead of doing all of the above, you could just reissue the real thing, a tonewheel organ.
      - klodolph 5y ago
        I'm talking about practice, not theory. You can buy waterfall keyboards easily enough. There is no equivalent for the electric piano. There are only three or so Rhodes simulations on the market... Arturia, Lounge Lizard, Clavia Lab... Clavia Lab seems defunct, maybe reducing this list to two. The Hammond simulation is just way easier. As a player, you're manipulating a bunch of key switches. The circuitry inside may have a lot of quirks, but those quirks are just a lot simpler to model than a Rhodes. Leslie simulation is something else... IMO, buying a real Leslie or DIYing something similar is far more convenient than buying a B3, and far less expensive than buying a Rhodes. Part of the price here is that a B3 is almost 200 kg. Maybe Rhodes simulations have gotten better since the last time I used them. I have an old keyboard from circa 2010, it's not designed specifically for organ players but even so the Hammond patches are pretty damn good... but the Rhodes patches leave a lot to be desired. Getting a good Hammond sound out of some kind of simulation is just so much easier than getting a good Rhodes sound.

dspig 5y ago

I guess there are enough in existence for those that want them (and not a digital recreation). An electro-mechanical remake would maybe not be any cheaper than a restored original, and might lack (imaginary) mojo. There's a lot less going on inside a Rhodes piano.

mastazi 5y ago
> I guess there are enough in existence for those that want them I guess you are in North America, which is probably the only region in the world where this is the case. Here in Australia you can get a Hammond from the US but you have to pay close to 5 grands just for shipping. Back when I was in Europe it was similarly hard to get one.

klodolph 5y ago

IMO tonewheel organ simulation is a solved problem. Rhodes emulations often fall short.

mastazi 5y ago
Yes I can see why you would say that, however I wouldn't go as far as saying "solved". Personally, I certainly can't hear the difference between the real thing and a (good) simulation, but are we sure that if you give a Hammond to Dr. Lonnie Smith, he won't be able to tell the difference? I reckon he would.
- klodolph 5y ago
  Why do you reckon that? The thing about the Hammond is that there are no dynamics. It was designed by a clockmaker as a very precise piece of machinery. It’s all switches and gears.
  - mastazi 5y ago
    Because I think that on a theoretical level, both el. piano and tonewheel organ are a solved problem (honestly I don't think that there are aspects of simulating a Rhodes that we're not aware of because they haven't been discovered yet). The problem comes when you actually start designing a new hardware product for the market: do you have cost constraints? What corners are you going to cut? If you aren't cutting corners, how much is the product going to cost? How large is your potential market then? If you are targeting a pro segment, among other things you would need to equip your organ with good quality DSPs and in case you go for physically based sound synthesis (which IMHO you should) I would imagine you need a good CPU + an OS with realtime kernel. For a Hammond you also have additional hardware requirements compared to a piano, e.g. good quality waterfall keyboard (not many producers out there, unlike weighted piano keyboards that are much more mainstream) and bass pedalboard (much more expensive than a keyboard for obvious structural reasons). > It was designed by a clockmaker as a very precise piece of machinery. Hammonds have all types of quirks, for example folding of the higher harmonics in the higher octaves or key click, not to mention Leslie emulation where all sorts of variables are in play such as mic positioning, speed, acceleration and deceleration of the cones... those are not unlike some piano quirks such as sympathetic resonance, which are not straight forward to emulate in a credible way. In the end, instead of doing all of the above, you could just reissue the real thing, a tonewheel organ.
    - klodolph 5y ago
      I'm talking about practice, not theory. You can buy waterfall keyboards easily enough. There is no equivalent for the electric piano. There are only three or so Rhodes simulations on the market... Arturia, Lounge Lizard, Clavia Lab... Clavia Lab seems defunct, maybe reducing this list to two. The Hammond simulation is just way easier. As a player, you're manipulating a bunch of key switches. The circuitry inside may have a lot of quirks, but those quirks are just a lot simpler to model than a Rhodes. Leslie simulation is something else... IMO, buying a real Leslie or DIYing something similar is far more convenient than buying a B3, and far less expensive than buying a Rhodes. Part of the price here is that a B3 is almost 200 kg. Maybe Rhodes simulations have gotten better since the last time I used them. I have an old keyboard from circa 2010, it's not designed specifically for organ players but even so the Hammond patches are pretty damn good... but the Rhodes patches leave a lot to be desired. Getting a good Hammond sound out of some kind of simulation is just so much easier than getting a good Rhodes sound.