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Please refer only to iOS as a walled garden. I can easily install Windows and Linux (natively) on my Macbooks, and this is not more cumbersome as on a regular P

Please refer only to iOS as a walled garden. I can easily install Windows and Linux (natively) on my Macbooks, and this is not more cumbersome as on a regular PC (disabling Secure Boot). With the Apple Silicon its not that easy, but mostly because there are just not mature-enough drivers (Linux) or no interest by the manufacturer (Windows). macOS is also not very locked-down - yes you might need to disable some security feature and reboot to install certain kernel modules, but this is nothing out of the ordinary. I can still run kernel-level code without jailbreaking/rooting the hardware on Macintoshs.

kavalg 5y ago
True, but you can't deny that Microsoft has moved a lot into the direction of walled garden / cloud based recently. I don't have the feeling that I own my PC as much as I did in the past (e.g. Windows 7).
comex 5y ago
> I can still run kernel-level code without jailbreaking/rooting the hardware on Macintoshs. Only if you’re willing to accept the loss of Apple Pay via Touch ID as well as the entire iOS-apps-on-Mac feature. It’s been years since Apple allowed you to run kernel-level code without losing features.
- littlecranky67 5y ago
  > iOS-apps-on-Mac feature Can you elaborate what you mean here? Maybe I missed something, but Apple does not provide any iOS-apps-on-Mac feature? Except of course for/through their development tools, but no Appstore thingy or alike.
  - amake 5y ago
    Yes, you missed something. https://machow2.com/run-ios-apps-mac/ https://machow2.com/run-ios-apps-mac/ Edit: In case you prefer a first-party source: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/running-your-ios-apps-on-macos https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/runn...
    - littlecranky67 5y ago
      No, I didn't. The first link is a 3rd party software (iMazing) and the second is a developer guide how to develop an App in a way that it will also run on macOS without recompilation. Also note, that just because that software exists that checks if the the system is run outside of secure mode and then refuses to run, that doesn't make the system a "walled garden". There is a whole class of Software that has been doing this for ages, it's called Anti-Cheat Software and mostly home to Windows.
      - goosedragons 5y ago
        M1 Macs can run iOS apps natively. The only catch is that it's up to devs to allow them to be installed from the Mac App store. Using iMazing is a workaround for apps that the devs don't enable to be installed from the App Store. Edit: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/app-store/fird2c7092da/mac https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/app-store/fird2c7092da...
  - pram 5y ago
    You can install iOS and iPad apps on MacOS straight from the App Store (with the caveat that developers can choose not to allow it) https://developer.apple.com/macos/iphone-and-ipad-apps/ https://developer.apple.com/macos/iphone-and-ipad-apps/ https://support.apple.com/guide/app-store/iphone-ipad-apps-mac-apple-silicon-fird2c7092da/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/app-store/iphone-ipad-apps-m...
- saagarjha 5y ago
  iOS apps on Mac work when your security policy is modified, it’s just FairPlay decryption that fails. I’m running several iOS apps on my Mac right now that are not encrypted (either because I built them from source or stripped it off) including some “unsupported” apps like Slack and Discord, which quite frankly provide a better experience as iOS apps than their Electron versions do. (I don’t fundamentally disagree with your point, though, although I am also obligated to mention you can load kexts from certain developers without disabling SIP which I guess is truly “without compromise” if you were lucky enough to get one of these certificates years ago when Apple handed them out like candy, but I digress.)
tambourine_man 5y ago
> I can still run kernel-level code without jailbreaking/rooting the hardware on Macintoshs. I don’t think you’ll be able to say that in a few releases. Apple is doing all that it can to make it almost impossible. Currently it’s already comically hard. I mean, installing audio highjack on an M1 is a quick 19 steps involving a reboot (I kid you not): https://rogueamoeba.com/support/knowledgebase/?showArticle=ACE-BigSur https://rogueamoeba.com/support/knowledgebase/?showArticle=A...
- runeks 5y ago
  > I mean, installing audio highjack on an M1 is a quick 19 steps involving a reboot (I kid you not): As a Mac user, installing software that can capture user input (like audio or keyboard strokes) in as few steps as possible is not a priority for me. I think there's a fine line between (a) requiring extra steps as part of a genuine concern for user security, and (b) preventing the user from running custom code to "protect them from themselves". As a developer, I'm willing to tolerate the former but not the latter.
  - tambourine_man 5y ago
    Sure, it's tolerable and somewhat understandable. I'm just worried if the curve continues on this trend it will eventually go from “very hard” to touching the “not allowed” axis.
heavyset_go 5y ago
> Please refer only to iOS as a walled garden. This is revisionism. Walled gardens exist upon a spectrum. Even AOL was a walled garden. Both Windows and macOS have varying degrees of walled garden features and restrictions.

kavalg 5y ago

True, but you can't deny that Microsoft has moved a lot into the direction of walled garden / cloud based recently. I don't have the feeling that I own my PC as much as I did in the past (e.g. Windows 7).

comex 5y ago

> I can still run kernel-level code without jailbreaking/rooting the hardware on Macintoshs. Only if you’re willing to accept the loss of Apple Pay via Touch ID as well as the entire iOS-apps-on-Mac feature. It’s been years since Apple allowed you to run kernel-level code without losing features.

littlecranky67 5y ago
> iOS-apps-on-Mac feature Can you elaborate what you mean here? Maybe I missed something, but Apple does not provide any iOS-apps-on-Mac feature? Except of course for/through their development tools, but no Appstore thingy or alike.
- amake 5y ago
  Yes, you missed something. https://machow2.com/run-ios-apps-mac/ https://machow2.com/run-ios-apps-mac/ Edit: In case you prefer a first-party source: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/running-your-ios-apps-on-macos https://developer.apple.com/documentation/apple-silicon/runn...
  - littlecranky67 5y ago
    No, I didn't. The first link is a 3rd party software (iMazing) and the second is a developer guide how to develop an App in a way that it will also run on macOS without recompilation. Also note, that just because that software exists that checks if the the system is run outside of secure mode and then refuses to run, that doesn't make the system a "walled garden". There is a whole class of Software that has been doing this for ages, it's called Anti-Cheat Software and mostly home to Windows.
    - goosedragons 5y ago
      M1 Macs can run iOS apps natively. The only catch is that it's up to devs to allow them to be installed from the Mac App store. Using iMazing is a workaround for apps that the devs don't enable to be installed from the App Store. Edit: https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/app-store/fird2c7092da/mac https://support.apple.com/en-ca/guide/app-store/fird2c7092da...
- pram 5y ago
  You can install iOS and iPad apps on MacOS straight from the App Store (with the caveat that developers can choose not to allow it) https://developer.apple.com/macos/iphone-and-ipad-apps/ https://developer.apple.com/macos/iphone-and-ipad-apps/ https://support.apple.com/guide/app-store/iphone-ipad-apps-mac-apple-silicon-fird2c7092da/mac https://support.apple.com/guide/app-store/iphone-ipad-apps-m...
saagarjha 5y ago
iOS apps on Mac work when your security policy is modified, it’s just FairPlay decryption that fails. I’m running several iOS apps on my Mac right now that are not encrypted (either because I built them from source or stripped it off) including some “unsupported” apps like Slack and Discord, which quite frankly provide a better experience as iOS apps than their Electron versions do. (I don’t fundamentally disagree with your point, though, although I am also obligated to mention you can load kexts from certain developers without disabling SIP which I guess is truly “without compromise” if you were lucky enough to get one of these certificates years ago when Apple handed them out like candy, but I digress.)

tambourine_man 5y ago

> I can still run kernel-level code without jailbreaking/rooting the hardware on Macintoshs. I don’t think you’ll be able to say that in a few releases. Apple is doing all that it can to make it almost impossible. Currently it’s already comically hard. I mean, installing audio highjack on an M1 is a quick 19 steps involving a reboot (I kid you not): https://rogueamoeba.com/support/knowledgebase/?showArticle=ACE-BigSur https://rogueamoeba.com/support/knowledgebase/?showArticle=A...

runeks 5y ago
> I mean, installing audio highjack on an M1 is a quick 19 steps involving a reboot (I kid you not): As a Mac user, installing software that can capture user input (like audio or keyboard strokes) in as few steps as possible is not a priority for me. I think there's a fine line between (a) requiring extra steps as part of a genuine concern for user security, and (b) preventing the user from running custom code to "protect them from themselves". As a developer, I'm willing to tolerate the former but not the latter.
- tambourine_man 5y ago
  Sure, it's tolerable and somewhat understandable. I'm just worried if the curve continues on this trend it will eventually go from “very hard” to touching the “not allowed” axis.

heavyset_go 5y ago

> Please refer only to iOS as a walled garden. This is revisionism. Walled gardens exist upon a spectrum. Even AOL was a walled garden. Both Windows and macOS have varying degrees of walled garden features and restrictions.