3 ms·

As others have noted, this is old and has aged very poorly... Her newer post seems much more interesting and apt to age better. https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-202

by qiskit 5y ago

As others have noted, this is old and has aged very poorly... Her newer post seems much more interesting and apt to age better. https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-2021-xhain-354-painting-tech-dystopi https://media.ccc.de/v/rc3-2021-xhain-354-painting-tech-dyst...

jka 5y ago
What hasn't aged well about this, if you don't mind sharing? (no need to explain if there's a relevant existing comment link)
- kurthr 5y ago
  Protest party representation has been made illegal. All protest is illegal. Many politicians, protesters, and supporters (including media and tycoons) have been arrested, tried, and imprisoned in PRC China... others are simply disappeared. Democracy/Lenin walls have all been removed and statues supporting democracy torn down in HK. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/democracy-dismantled-hong-kong-2021-81983491 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/democracy-dis...
- qiskit 5y ago
  Everything she wrote turned out to be false. The "protestors" were caught and arrested. The dissemination of "information/propaganda" was stopped, anonymity ended, etc. But most importantly of all, the "story of how and why Hongkongers have been able to sustain their movement for months" was false. It was US/UK/EU/etc funding that sustained the "protests". Once china blocked the money from US/UK/EU/etc, the protests magically ended. In other words, these "protests" weren't hong kong driven, hong kong focused or really hong kong related. It was the US/UK/EU/etc trying to destabilize china. The only thing it did was prove a slight nuisance, turn the hong kong public against the "protestors" and secure china's control over hong kong.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - song 5y ago
    Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I live in HK, I know a lot of people who were protestors, the vast majority of my local friends who are in their 30s would identify as being yellow and their anger at China is not due to any money from US/UK/EU. No, what stopped the protests was not a question of money, it was the wave of arrests after the CCP destroyed democracy with the national security law, it was covid coming at that time, it was when it became too risky to have an opinion contrary to the CCP in Hong Kong because "sedition" is illegal. This is why a lot of my highly educated friends moved out of Hong Kong (and more would have if not for Covid). Do you even live in Hong Kong to say such utter idiocy? Have you even talked to locals? or are you just parroting the bullshit that's repeated on Weixin?
    - qiskit 5y ago
      > I live in HK, I know a lot of people who were protestors, the vast majority of my local friends who are in their 30s would identify as being yellow and their anger at China is not due to any money from US/UK/EU. I didn't say everyone was paid. Protests require organization and that was obviously funded by foreign sources. > No, what stopped the protests was not a question of money Sure it is. Without anyone leading the protests, there is no protest. And those leading the protests require funding. > it was the wave of arrests after the CCP destroyed democracy with the national security law "democracy". Sure. The only reason hong kong has a democracy in the first place is because of the "CCP". Lets not forget britain never gave hong kong democracy in their 150 years of colonial rule. It only came after the british left or was liberated by the chinese - however you want to view it. > it was covid coming at that time, it was when it became too risky to have an opinion contrary to the CCP in Hong Kong because "sedition" is illegal. Is sedition legal anywhere? Covid? The "protest" was done in the fall of 2019 when the foreign funding was blocked. I remember the media going crazy over it ( wonder why? ). Now you hardly hear a peep about it. I'm sure in a few years when we want to agitate the chinese, we'll being funding protests again somehow. That is after we are finished funding protests to destabilize myanmar, venezuela, another middle eastern country, african countries, etc. Or maybe we'll be too busy destabilizing ukraine to bother with china for a while. Lucky them. > Have you even talked to locals? No. But I don't need to. I'm sure many of them had their own reasons to protest. I'm talking about the protest organization. Two separate things. It's like the difference between people who attend a rave and those that organize it and publicize it. > or are you just parroting the bullshit that's repeated on Weixin? Don't know what that is. Sorry. These are my own thoughts. If I wanted to be a parrot, I'd be parroting the propaganda I see on the news everyday. Oh those terrible CCP and Xi who cares nothing about the chinese people, but it's us in the west who truly care about china and democracy. Nevermind we owned china for 100 and hong kong for 150 and never introduced democracy to china or hong kong or even india. Who are we kidding here?
  - HKH2 5y ago
    No, the protests stopped after the National Security Law was implemented.
kurthr 5y ago
Even her latest talk seems a bit off to me. Accusing people of being Anti-Asian or Orientalist is a classic CCP propaganda technique. It is certainly true that the COVID tracking and Social Credit mechanisms are no where near as automated as some would believe (and perhaps fetishize), but it is not true that they somehow don't exist or don't have consequences. I agree, we should not believe outrageous claims of super face recognition (with masks?) or tracking of over 1B people (even with phones), but at the same time, you need to realize that as a foreign citizen your hotel is required to report you to police for each night that you stay, and they will track you down, if they need to, and your host will be held accountable (possibly jailed) for failing to report your location. This is not at all like the rest of Asia (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Signapore etc) and conflating them together is a huge mistake. https://wtop.com/dc/2022/02/chinese-artist-blasts-gw-presidents-apology-over-poster-removal/ https://wtop.com/dc/2022/02/chinese-artist-blasts-gw-preside... For example, it is true that they don't really track individuals for contact tracing by BT without a human in the loop. But it is also true (and reported locally on Wiebo) that individuals based on cell location, who had visited cities (of >1M) were forced to quarantine and unable to return to work, when COVID cases were reported in those cities. It's not magic, it just requires the local administrators and police to send you a message through your WeChat. You had better stay in place. Similarly, SocialCredit is not some magic automated thing, but it is definitely used to punish people by local administrators or national party for (political) crimes, and it can definitely prevent you from buying train or plane tickets or getting a job, passport, university entrance. As usual compliance is _mostly_ based on fear rather than enforcement, and that means that China state news supports such fetishized AI dreams in their reporting. Yes, we need to look at our own issues, but that doesn't mean ignoring (or normalizing) those which exist elsewhere. I suspect that London has about as much effective surveillance as Beijing or Shanghai, but that doesn't mean that they don't often track people (especially foreigners). Are these myths that needed busting? This just feels a bit like a softer whataboutism, and I don't know if she needs to travel to China now, but she would pay a price, if she didn't toe the party line.
- qiskit 5y ago
  > Accusing people of being Anti-Asian or Orientalist is a classic CCP propaganda technique. Just because it's propaganda doesn't mean it's not true. Sure the chinese are using it for their propaganda. It's not their fault we make it so laughably easy for them. > It is certainly true that the COVID tracking and Social Credit mechanisms are no where near as automated as some would believe (and perhaps fetishize), but it is not true that they somehow don't exist or don't have consequences. There are interviews of chinese people on youtube about the covid tracking and social credit propaganda online. The chinese people laugh at it because the propaganda is so absurd. Here's a clue. If you see propaganda on mainstream media and joe rogan/"alt-right" and they agree, it's most likely absolute absurdity. > you need to realize that as a foreign citizen your hotel is required to report you to police for each night that you stay, and they will track you down, if they need to, and your host will be held accountable (possibly jailed) for failing to report your location. You realize that in europe and most other nations ( including taiwan, singapore, korea, etc ) around the world, hotels take your passport from you right when you check-in. It's good that they track foreigners because you don't belong there. > This is not at all like the rest of Asia (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Signapore etc) and conflating them together is a huge mistake. You sure about that? You do realize that china studied and modeled much of their society off of singapore, japan, korea, etc. I think you are understating how "authoritarian" these countries are. > and it can definitely prevent you from buying train or plane tickets or getting a job, passport, university entrance Every country has had this forever. You do realize that in many countries, if your "social credit" isn't good, you can't buy a house, get a job or even vote. > Yes, we need to look at our own issues, but that doesn't mean ignoring (or normalizing) those which exist elsewhere. Even if those issues don't exist? Even if these "issues" are manufactured to attack a country? It's funny how so many people suddenly care about muslims, chinese, etc all of a sudden. But you really care about the chinese people right?

by qiskit 5y ago

jka 5y ago

What hasn't aged well about this, if you don't mind sharing? (no need to explain if there's a relevant existing comment link)

kurthr 5y ago
Protest party representation has been made illegal. All protest is illegal. Many politicians, protesters, and supporters (including media and tycoons) have been arrested, tried, and imprisoned in PRC China... others are simply disappeared. Democracy/Lenin walls have all been removed and statues supporting democracy torn down in HK. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/democracy-dismantled-hong-kong-2021-81983491 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/democracy-dis...
qiskit 5y ago
Everything she wrote turned out to be false. The "protestors" were caught and arrested. The dissemination of "information/propaganda" was stopped, anonymity ended, etc. But most importantly of all, the "story of how and why Hongkongers have been able to sustain their movement for months" was false. It was US/UK/EU/etc funding that sustained the "protests". Once china blocked the money from US/UK/EU/etc, the protests magically ended. In other words, these "protests" weren't hong kong driven, hong kong focused or really hong kong related. It was the US/UK/EU/etc trying to destabilize china. The only thing it did was prove a slight nuisance, turn the hong kong public against the "protestors" and secure china's control over hong kong.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- song 5y ago
  Sorry, but I call bullshit on this. I live in HK, I know a lot of people who were protestors, the vast majority of my local friends who are in their 30s would identify as being yellow and their anger at China is not due to any money from US/UK/EU. No, what stopped the protests was not a question of money, it was the wave of arrests after the CCP destroyed democracy with the national security law, it was covid coming at that time, it was when it became too risky to have an opinion contrary to the CCP in Hong Kong because "sedition" is illegal. This is why a lot of my highly educated friends moved out of Hong Kong (and more would have if not for Covid). Do you even live in Hong Kong to say such utter idiocy? Have you even talked to locals? or are you just parroting the bullshit that's repeated on Weixin?
  - qiskit 5y ago
    > I live in HK, I know a lot of people who were protestors, the vast majority of my local friends who are in their 30s would identify as being yellow and their anger at China is not due to any money from US/UK/EU. I didn't say everyone was paid. Protests require organization and that was obviously funded by foreign sources. > No, what stopped the protests was not a question of money Sure it is. Without anyone leading the protests, there is no protest. And those leading the protests require funding. > it was the wave of arrests after the CCP destroyed democracy with the national security law "democracy". Sure. The only reason hong kong has a democracy in the first place is because of the "CCP". Lets not forget britain never gave hong kong democracy in their 150 years of colonial rule. It only came after the british left or was liberated by the chinese - however you want to view it. > it was covid coming at that time, it was when it became too risky to have an opinion contrary to the CCP in Hong Kong because "sedition" is illegal. Is sedition legal anywhere? Covid? The "protest" was done in the fall of 2019 when the foreign funding was blocked. I remember the media going crazy over it ( wonder why? ). Now you hardly hear a peep about it. I'm sure in a few years when we want to agitate the chinese, we'll being funding protests again somehow. That is after we are finished funding protests to destabilize myanmar, venezuela, another middle eastern country, african countries, etc. Or maybe we'll be too busy destabilizing ukraine to bother with china for a while. Lucky them. > Have you even talked to locals? No. But I don't need to. I'm sure many of them had their own reasons to protest. I'm talking about the protest organization. Two separate things. It's like the difference between people who attend a rave and those that organize it and publicize it. > or are you just parroting the bullshit that's repeated on Weixin? Don't know what that is. Sorry. These are my own thoughts. If I wanted to be a parrot, I'd be parroting the propaganda I see on the news everyday. Oh those terrible CCP and Xi who cares nothing about the chinese people, but it's us in the west who truly care about china and democracy. Nevermind we owned china for 100 and hong kong for 150 and never introduced democracy to china or hong kong or even india. Who are we kidding here?
- HKH2 5y ago
  No, the protests stopped after the National Security Law was implemented.

kurthr 5y ago

Even her latest talk seems a bit off to me. Accusing people of being Anti-Asian or Orientalist is a classic CCP propaganda technique. It is certainly true that the COVID tracking and Social Credit mechanisms are no where near as automated as some would believe (and perhaps fetishize), but it is not true that they somehow don't exist or don't have consequences. I agree, we should not believe outrageous claims of super face recognition (with masks?) or tracking of over 1B people (even with phones), but at the same time, you need to realize that as a foreign citizen your hotel is required to report you to police for each night that you stay, and they will track you down, if they need to, and your host will be held accountable (possibly jailed) for failing to report your location. This is not at all like the rest of Asia (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Signapore etc) and conflating them together is a huge mistake. https://wtop.com/dc/2022/02/chinese-artist-blasts-gw-presidents-apology-over-poster-removal/ https://wtop.com/dc/2022/02/chinese-artist-blasts-gw-preside... For example, it is true that they don't really track individuals for contact tracing by BT without a human in the loop. But it is also true (and reported locally on Wiebo) that individuals based on cell location, who had visited cities (of >1M) were forced to quarantine and unable to return to work, when COVID cases were reported in those cities. It's not magic, it just requires the local administrators and police to send you a message through your WeChat. You had better stay in place. Similarly, SocialCredit is not some magic automated thing, but it is definitely used to punish people by local administrators or national party for (political) crimes, and it can definitely prevent you from buying train or plane tickets or getting a job, passport, university entrance. As usual compliance is _mostly_ based on fear rather than enforcement, and that means that China state news supports such fetishized AI dreams in their reporting. Yes, we need to look at our own issues, but that doesn't mean ignoring (or normalizing) those which exist elsewhere. I suspect that London has about as much effective surveillance as Beijing or Shanghai, but that doesn't mean that they don't often track people (especially foreigners). Are these myths that needed busting? This just feels a bit like a softer whataboutism, and I don't know if she needs to travel to China now, but she would pay a price, if she didn't toe the party line.

qiskit 5y ago
> Accusing people of being Anti-Asian or Orientalist is a classic CCP propaganda technique. Just because it's propaganda doesn't mean it's not true. Sure the chinese are using it for their propaganda. It's not their fault we make it so laughably easy for them. > It is certainly true that the COVID tracking and Social Credit mechanisms are no where near as automated as some would believe (and perhaps fetishize), but it is not true that they somehow don't exist or don't have consequences. There are interviews of chinese people on youtube about the covid tracking and social credit propaganda online. The chinese people laugh at it because the propaganda is so absurd. Here's a clue. If you see propaganda on mainstream media and joe rogan/"alt-right" and they agree, it's most likely absolute absurdity. > you need to realize that as a foreign citizen your hotel is required to report you to police for each night that you stay, and they will track you down, if they need to, and your host will be held accountable (possibly jailed) for failing to report your location. You realize that in europe and most other nations ( including taiwan, singapore, korea, etc ) around the world, hotels take your passport from you right when you check-in. It's good that they track foreigners because you don't belong there. > This is not at all like the rest of Asia (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Signapore etc) and conflating them together is a huge mistake. You sure about that? You do realize that china studied and modeled much of their society off of singapore, japan, korea, etc. I think you are understating how "authoritarian" these countries are. > and it can definitely prevent you from buying train or plane tickets or getting a job, passport, university entrance Every country has had this forever. You do realize that in many countries, if your "social credit" isn't good, you can't buy a house, get a job or even vote. > Yes, we need to look at our own issues, but that doesn't mean ignoring (or normalizing) those which exist elsewhere. Even if those issues don't exist? Even if these "issues" are manufactured to attack a country? It's funny how so many people suddenly care about muslims, chinese, etc all of a sudden. But you really care about the chinese people right?