4 ms·

Chances are if your tie/dress shirt makes you feel uncomfortable, you bought the wrong size. Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist.

CWuestefeld 15y ago
Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist. I disagree, at least for off-the-rack clothes. I have a 17.5" neck, and looking at me you wouldn't think I'm a no-neck football player. When I get a fitted shirt that is correct for my neck, it means that I've got to fold in at least 4" extra fabric around my waist. It seems that all clothes here in America assumes that some people are obese, and the rest of the population is merely fat. I think the only way to get a dress shirt that's anywhere near the right size is to have it tailor-made.
- joeconyers 15y ago
  There are plenty of companies like: http://www.indochino.com/ http://www.indochino.com/ who will do "made to measure" for reasonable prices (these guys do sales for $50/shirt from time to time).
  - stouset 15y ago
    The equivalent price of three snarky subculture-identification T-shirts.
- kellysutton 15y ago
  I've also got a 16.5" and a pretty thin frame. Tailors are your friend and can make miracles.
- omgsean 15y ago
  Look for slim fit shirts. I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts. H&M also makes good slim fitting shirts if you're on a budget. In American clothing lingo "extra slim fit" just means "not overweight." Alternately, have your shirts taken in by a tailor. Most will do it for about $8-12, hardly an imposition for a developer who probably makes 2-3 times that per hour.
  - CWuestefeld 15y ago
    I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts. Holy mackerel! They're $79.50 each!
    - omgsean 15y ago
      I'm told they last. With some brands you pay for the label, but with others you're paying for quality. For example, if you buy a pair of $300 shoes from Allen Edmonds and treat them properly you can expect to get 20 years out of them. The concept of disposable clothes is fairly new, and there are still a handful of companies who want to sell you a shirt that lasts.
    - dagw 15y ago
      Honest question. Are you saying "Holy Mackerel", because it's more than you expected or less? $80 for a nice shirt is really a pretty decent price, and many brands cost a lot more.
wonderzombie 15y ago
This is true. I got a tailored suit and shirts for my wedding. It turns out that dress clothes can be quite comfortable if they fit you. When they're uncomfortable, it's largely because off the rack clothing is designed to be as generic as possible.
- ironchef 15y ago
  Hear hear. Potential metaphors: 1) The difference between healthy tasty food and unhealthy tasty food. "Oh nothing made with <ingredient X such as broccoli> tastes good". Chances are you've just not eaten it prepared well 2) The difference between fast food and a tasty home cooked meal. It takes time and effort to make a home cooked meal which tastes good (usually). Some people would rather just eat crap....it works for them.
  - orangecat 15y ago
    Yes, if there were no health implications I would absolutely eat fast food most of the time. 90% of the taste for 10% of the hassle works for me.
- stouset 15y ago
  Compare: cost of a tailored suit, cost of a pair of jeans and T-shirt.
HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
Can't you just accept that some people simply don't like the look? I own a a single silk tie and one nice dress shirt. I never wear them unless business needs require it. I don't even have a suit that still fits. I'm normally dressed in a T-shirt/collared shirt and either jeans or slacks -- IIRC, that's what I got married in! My clothes fit properly, they're simple, (I usually only wear solid colors) clean and comfortable. As far as I'm concerned, I'm well dressed, if informal. What exactly is wrong with that?
- kellysutton 15y ago
  If it fits well, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm just trying to get fellow developers to move beyond the T-shirt/hoodie uniform.
  - tptacek 15y ago
    You managed to be pretty condescending about it: * You used the language of "better", not "different", of "honest self-improvement" and "challenging yourself", leaving implications hanging about people who decide not to do these things * You literally say you can't see an "excuse" for developers not to dress differently. * "You're building the future, so dress like it" (also note that in addition to being condescending, this is also an ineffective rhetorical strategy, since it begs the answer "we are dressing like it, dude") * You argue that most hackers can't wear their single most common article of clothing because of body type. You reference _Put This On_ twice in your post. _Put This On_ is, not to put too fine a point on it, a hobbyist blog. These are people who spend their weekends at thrift shops hunting for specific brands of clothes. It's also a blog that routinely finds ways to write takedowns of celebs who clearly spend time and effort dressing themselves; the blog advocates a distinctive style. I read and enjoy _Put This On_ (they're great writers), but you might concern yourself with the fact that you're effectively inflicting your hobby on other people.
  - wglb 15y ago
    In a previous life, I was a consultant/contractor at a very large enterprise. Despite the whole outfit being business casual, I wore a suit every day of the long span that I worked there. It had a dramatic effect on the people that I worked with. It changed the conversation. It was at least faintly intimidating to those I worked with. Now, times are different, and we are So there are some occasions that I would do it again. (I mean besides my nephew's wedding.) But amongst developers, it will send the wrong message. It will make you seem like one of the Ross Perot employees where imagination was selectively bred out. Wearing a suit in most circumstances today will suggest the opposite of technical competence.

CWuestefeld 15y ago

Comfortable dress shirts and ties do exist. I disagree, at least for off-the-rack clothes. I have a 17.5" neck, and looking at me you wouldn't think I'm a no-neck football player. When I get a fitted shirt that is correct for my neck, it means that I've got to fold in at least 4" extra fabric around my waist. It seems that all clothes here in America assumes that some people are obese, and the rest of the population is merely fat. I think the only way to get a dress shirt that's anywhere near the right size is to have it tailor-made.

joeconyers 15y ago
There are plenty of companies like: http://www.indochino.com/ http://www.indochino.com/ who will do "made to measure" for reasonable prices (these guys do sales for $50/shirt from time to time).
- stouset 15y ago
  The equivalent price of three snarky subculture-identification T-shirts.
kellysutton 15y ago
I've also got a 16.5" and a pretty thin frame. Tailors are your friend and can make miracles.
omgsean 15y ago
Look for slim fit shirts. I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts. H&M also makes good slim fitting shirts if you're on a budget. In American clothing lingo "extra slim fit" just means "not overweight." Alternately, have your shirts taken in by a tailor. Most will do it for about $8-12, hardly an imposition for a developer who probably makes 2-3 times that per hour.
- CWuestefeld 15y ago
  I've heard good things about Brooks Brothers Extra Slim Fit shirts. Holy mackerel! They're $79.50 each!
  - omgsean 15y ago
    I'm told they last. With some brands you pay for the label, but with others you're paying for quality. For example, if you buy a pair of $300 shoes from Allen Edmonds and treat them properly you can expect to get 20 years out of them. The concept of disposable clothes is fairly new, and there are still a handful of companies who want to sell you a shirt that lasts.
  - dagw 15y ago
    Honest question. Are you saying "Holy Mackerel", because it's more than you expected or less? $80 for a nice shirt is really a pretty decent price, and many brands cost a lot more.

wonderzombie 15y ago

This is true. I got a tailored suit and shirts for my wedding. It turns out that dress clothes can be quite comfortable if they fit you. When they're uncomfortable, it's largely because off the rack clothing is designed to be as generic as possible.

ironchef 15y ago
Hear hear. Potential metaphors: 1) The difference between healthy tasty food and unhealthy tasty food. "Oh nothing made with <ingredient X such as broccoli> tastes good". Chances are you've just not eaten it prepared well 2) The difference between fast food and a tasty home cooked meal. It takes time and effort to make a home cooked meal which tastes good (usually). Some people would rather just eat crap....it works for them.
- orangecat 15y ago
  Yes, if there were no health implications I would absolutely eat fast food most of the time. 90% of the taste for 10% of the hassle works for me.
stouset 15y ago
Compare: cost of a tailored suit, cost of a pair of jeans and T-shirt.

HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago

Can't you just accept that some people simply don't like the look? I own a a single silk tie and one nice dress shirt. I never wear them unless business needs require it. I don't even have a suit that still fits. I'm normally dressed in a T-shirt/collared shirt and either jeans or slacks -- IIRC, that's what I got married in! My clothes fit properly, they're simple, (I usually only wear solid colors) clean and comfortable. As far as I'm concerned, I'm well dressed, if informal. What exactly is wrong with that?

kellysutton 15y ago
If it fits well, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I'm just trying to get fellow developers to move beyond the T-shirt/hoodie uniform.
- tptacek 15y ago
  You managed to be pretty condescending about it: * You used the language of "better", not "different", of "honest self-improvement" and "challenging yourself", leaving implications hanging about people who decide not to do these things * You literally say you can't see an "excuse" for developers not to dress differently. * "You're building the future, so dress like it" (also note that in addition to being condescending, this is also an ineffective rhetorical strategy, since it begs the answer "we are dressing like it, dude") * You argue that most hackers can't wear their single most common article of clothing because of body type. You reference _Put This On_ twice in your post. _Put This On_ is, not to put too fine a point on it, a hobbyist blog. These are people who spend their weekends at thrift shops hunting for specific brands of clothes. It's also a blog that routinely finds ways to write takedowns of celebs who clearly spend time and effort dressing themselves; the blog advocates a distinctive style. I read and enjoy _Put This On_ (they're great writers), but you might concern yourself with the fact that you're effectively inflicting your hobby on other people.
- wglb 15y ago
  In a previous life, I was a consultant/contractor at a very large enterprise. Despite the whole outfit being business casual, I wore a suit every day of the long span that I worked there. It had a dramatic effect on the people that I worked with. It changed the conversation. It was at least faintly intimidating to those I worked with. Now, times are different, and we are So there are some occasions that I would do it again. (I mean besides my nephew's wedding.) But amongst developers, it will send the wrong message. It will make you seem like one of the Ross Perot employees where imagination was selectively bred out. Wearing a suit in most circumstances today will suggest the opposite of technical competence.