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> I think many germans are feeling pressure for the first time in their lives, and for the first time in modern german history they have to sacrifice comfort in

> I think many germans are feeling pressure for the first time in their lives, and for the first time in modern german history they have to sacrifice comfort in order to do their part. And here we are with the "weak westerners" trope. I can't count the jokes about Germans being to soft to manage slightly colder rooms in the last two days. You perpuate this in the same comment I which you claim there is absolutely just pure love for Germany, nothing else. And then the whole Germany isn't doing anything. They spend 50 billions on the military each year. The added another 100 billion on top now. They support all sanctions, including SWIFT. Still not enough? Why? What else? Do you want them to march on Moscow again? Kill another 26 million Russians? Why are you trying to act like all the negativity towards Germany does not exist? I'm not saying you hate Germany, I'm not saying everyone hates Germany, but just look around. Think about all the examples I gave you for a second. From the German perspective, they sure get a lot of shit for everything the do and not too much recognition either. Nobody is even mentioning France and Italy, who were also opposed to SWIFT exclusion. Remember, this discussion started by me saying that I don't see Germany loving the idea of a unified army, given the internal differences in the EU and the way many people from other countries like to hate on Germany. You have continuously just denied that. You think Germany and Poland can happily fight for freedom together, when in Poland that freedom does not extend to women with unwanted pregnancy? You think Germans want to die in the trenches for Orban, who is stealing their money? For people who are openly racist against Muslims? In a unified EU army, can I even trust that this army will always be used for defense? Or do I have to support Poland's phanasies of drowning refugees in the Mediterranean sea? Don't get me wrong, standing together against Putin is easy and we are all in. But I don't think Germans want their soldiers be controlled via the EU, in which PIS and Orban would get a say one who they should kill.

yrgulation 5y ago
I agree re army. I’ll stop this here because at no point have you criticised how germans and germany treat other europeans, making me think you are playing victim or simply trolling. I thought we were having a genuine debate.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  I never said that Germans are perfect or that they don't criticize other European countries. I am in fact Austrian, we are the number 1 nation in Europe when it comes to bashing Germans. So I also don't know how I can play victim, given that I am not German. It's easy for you to accuse me of not having a "genuine debate". From my perspective, you have continuously ignored all points I brought up. Again, remember what we are discussing here: a unified EU army. My whole argument is that when I look at the way Germany is bashed by some EU countries, I don't know how the Germans will like that. Go ahead and rephrase: "If I look at the amount of disagreement between European countries, I don't see how many nations can be happy about a unified army." Please, explain to me how Germans would feel when Orban and PIS have power over their soldiers? Again, easy when it is to fight against Putin. But what about the refugee situation? How can we fight for common values, when in Hungary and in Poland, the leaders are actively against freedom and promoting authoritarianism? When Germany sent helmets to Ukraine, the whole world laughed at them. The Polish PM came to Germany and basically spat in Scholzes face. Now Germany is shipping weapons. In violation of German law, which states that Germany is not allowed to ship weapons to active war zones. A law that was made to ensure Germany would not repeat mistakes of the past. Is it so hard for to acknowledge that Germany might have a hard time with all this stuff? Can you not see how the descendants of the Nazis, who swore themselves "never again", might have a hard time to jump back into being a military power? Can you not maybe try to empathize with people who, after they opened their borders to refugees have been met with harsh criticism from other countries, who are openly anti-muslim, now have hard time seeing these "shared values"? And can you maybe also understand why these people might be a little upset about how everyone constantly harks at them for "not doing enough", when in fact they are always on board with all sanctions and already have one of the biggest military budget in Europe? And again, this is not about fighting Putin today, this is about the idea of unified EU army. So what are you genuinely debating about? What is your point? My point is that a lot of people seem to want to tell the Germans what to do, whenever they don't the others suddenly remind them of unpaid Nazi debt, and when the Germans are unwilling to be a military power because of the same Nazi history, they are being ridiculed. And we are having this whole conversation here, where you basically deny the Germans right to feel a little annoyed by all this.

yrgulation 5y ago

I agree re army. I’ll stop this here because at no point have you criticised how germans and germany treat other europeans, making me think you are playing victim or simply trolling. I thought we were having a genuine debate.

turbinerneiter 5y ago
I never said that Germans are perfect or that they don't criticize other European countries. I am in fact Austrian, we are the number 1 nation in Europe when it comes to bashing Germans. So I also don't know how I can play victim, given that I am not German. It's easy for you to accuse me of not having a "genuine debate". From my perspective, you have continuously ignored all points I brought up. Again, remember what we are discussing here: a unified EU army. My whole argument is that when I look at the way Germany is bashed by some EU countries, I don't know how the Germans will like that. Go ahead and rephrase: "If I look at the amount of disagreement between European countries, I don't see how many nations can be happy about a unified army." Please, explain to me how Germans would feel when Orban and PIS have power over their soldiers? Again, easy when it is to fight against Putin. But what about the refugee situation? How can we fight for common values, when in Hungary and in Poland, the leaders are actively against freedom and promoting authoritarianism? When Germany sent helmets to Ukraine, the whole world laughed at them. The Polish PM came to Germany and basically spat in Scholzes face. Now Germany is shipping weapons. In violation of German law, which states that Germany is not allowed to ship weapons to active war zones. A law that was made to ensure Germany would not repeat mistakes of the past. Is it so hard for to acknowledge that Germany might have a hard time with all this stuff? Can you not see how the descendants of the Nazis, who swore themselves "never again", might have a hard time to jump back into being a military power? Can you not maybe try to empathize with people who, after they opened their borders to refugees have been met with harsh criticism from other countries, who are openly anti-muslim, now have hard time seeing these "shared values"? And can you maybe also understand why these people might be a little upset about how everyone constantly harks at them for "not doing enough", when in fact they are always on board with all sanctions and already have one of the biggest military budget in Europe? And again, this is not about fighting Putin today, this is about the idea of unified EU army. So what are you genuinely debating about? What is your point? My point is that a lot of people seem to want to tell the Germans what to do, whenever they don't the others suddenly remind them of unpaid Nazi debt, and when the Germans are unwilling to be a military power because of the same Nazi history, they are being ridiculed. And we are having this whole conversation here, where you basically deny the Germans right to feel a little annoyed by all this.