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How does electrifying your house solve the problem? That electricity still needs to come from someplace, and more often that not it comes from a combination of

by ejb999 5y ago

How does electrifying your house solve the problem? That electricity still needs to come from someplace, and more often that not it comes from a combination of coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear. Maybe someday when we can generate 100% of what we need from renewable sources - but we aren't even close to being there yet, and in the meantime, people still need energy.

ZeroGravitas 5y ago
Because electrical things are more efficient, cleaner and cheaper and just generally better than any alternative that burns fossil fuels directly, so less fossil fuels get burned and less fossil fuels get bought and oil-based economies can't get away with flying 747s into tall buildings or invading their neighbours any more. I don't think this is particularly complicated, but I did just link to a whole book on the topic if you're not getting the general gist.
sofixa 5y ago
It solves tomorrow's problem. Currently most electrical grids are moving to less carbon intensive electricity generation methods ( even if many still use coal, oil and gas power plants), and if you electrify now, your carbon emissions will drop with the grid's, and the job of "greenify"-ing everything would be done. Furthermore, if you live in a country where electricity produces very low amounts of carbon ( like France or the Nordics), it already makes sense.
- ejb999 5y ago
  Still think it silly to think that will make any difference - if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)? and the more people that switch to electric, and the faster they switch it will increase even more the amount of coal being burned - it just gets burned in someone else's neighborhood instead of my own. IMO, money and effort would be much better spent modernizing and insulating homes and replacing really old appliances (including furnaces and boilers) and thus reducing the overall demand for energy - regardless of the source of the fuel. Reducing the need is hard to argue with - changing where it comes from - when very little comes from renewables doesn't even move the needle.
  - ZeroGravitas 5y ago
    > if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)? Yes. The precise details will vary by location, but for example this was a very common argument used against EVs, they're just coal powered cars! So the Union of Concerned Scientists did reports on exactly how bad an EV in specific locations would be, and even in highly coal dependant areas, it was still better, today, and would only get better as the grid gets greener. https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles... Lots of people seem unaware that heat pumps are about 4x the efficiency of even modern gas heaters, so just burning the gas in electricity generators would be enough for us to cut out all Russian imports and more. You are right that insulation, and efficiency are important (e.g. it makes sense to insulate your house properly when planning a heat pump install, and the oldest and least efficient boilers should be targetted first for upgrade) that was part of my point, see the link to the Energy Saving Trust who have in depth details on exactly which things help the most and cost the least, and look up your local equivalent.
    - jaltekruse 5y ago
      For the record, while its clear you think I'm not with you, I totally agree with this statement. Increasing demand for electricity is absolutely essential to convince politicians to back the scale up of the grid that will be needed as more people have electric cars and home heating systems. Buying electric everything today creates demand that forces the hand of people debating installing new natural gas infrastructure that will be used for 80 years, or finally saying that it isn't worth it because a high percentage of people switched to electric and we can't justify the cost anymore for a few holdouts on gas, we just force the last few to switch to electric at that point. All that being said, today people are dying, and Europe is afraid to do much about it because everyone has been increasing natural gas use to offset coal, it was a cheap solution to part of the problem. We might not agree that resisting Russian expansionism is an important short term objective, but I believe we need to start acting like Russia rewrote the world order a few days ago and we can either fight that or roll over.

by ejb999 5y ago

ZeroGravitas 5y ago

Because electrical things are more efficient, cleaner and cheaper and just generally better than any alternative that burns fossil fuels directly, so less fossil fuels get burned and less fossil fuels get bought and oil-based economies can't get away with flying 747s into tall buildings or invading their neighbours any more. I don't think this is particularly complicated, but I did just link to a whole book on the topic if you're not getting the general gist.

sofixa 5y ago

It solves tomorrow's problem. Currently most electrical grids are moving to less carbon intensive electricity generation methods ( even if many still use coal, oil and gas power plants), and if you electrify now, your carbon emissions will drop with the grid's, and the job of "greenify"-ing everything would be done. Furthermore, if you live in a country where electricity produces very low amounts of carbon ( like France or the Nordics), it already makes sense.

ejb999 5y ago
Still think it silly to think that will make any difference - if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)? and the more people that switch to electric, and the faster they switch it will increase even more the amount of coal being burned - it just gets burned in someone else's neighborhood instead of my own. IMO, money and effort would be much better spent modernizing and insulating homes and replacing really old appliances (including furnaces and boilers) and thus reducing the overall demand for energy - regardless of the source of the fuel. Reducing the need is hard to argue with - changing where it comes from - when very little comes from renewables doesn't even move the needle.
- ZeroGravitas 5y ago
  > if I heat my house now with natural gas or oil, am I really doing the environment any favors by switching to electric where in some regions a very high percentage comes from coal (and natural gas and oil)? Yes. The precise details will vary by location, but for example this was a very common argument used against EVs, they're just coal powered cars! So the Union of Concerned Scientists did reports on exactly how bad an EV in specific locations would be, and even in highly coal dependant areas, it was still better, today, and would only get better as the grid gets greener. https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles-really-better-for-the-climate-yes-heres-why/ https://blog.ucsusa.org/dave-reichmuth/are-electric-vehicles... Lots of people seem unaware that heat pumps are about 4x the efficiency of even modern gas heaters, so just burning the gas in electricity generators would be enough for us to cut out all Russian imports and more. You are right that insulation, and efficiency are important (e.g. it makes sense to insulate your house properly when planning a heat pump install, and the oldest and least efficient boilers should be targetted first for upgrade) that was part of my point, see the link to the Energy Saving Trust who have in depth details on exactly which things help the most and cost the least, and look up your local equivalent.
  - jaltekruse 5y ago
    For the record, while its clear you think I'm not with you, I totally agree with this statement. Increasing demand for electricity is absolutely essential to convince politicians to back the scale up of the grid that will be needed as more people have electric cars and home heating systems. Buying electric everything today creates demand that forces the hand of people debating installing new natural gas infrastructure that will be used for 80 years, or finally saying that it isn't worth it because a high percentage of people switched to electric and we can't justify the cost anymore for a few holdouts on gas, we just force the last few to switch to electric at that point. All that being said, today people are dying, and Europe is afraid to do much about it because everyone has been increasing natural gas use to offset coal, it was a cheap solution to part of the problem. We might not agree that resisting Russian expansionism is an important short term objective, but I believe we need to start acting like Russia rewrote the world order a few days ago and we can either fight that or roll over.