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The reason I don't want a European army is that I don't really see Germany def ending a couple of countries that hate it. Germany demilitarized after WW2 and d

The reason I don't want a European army is that I don't really see Germany def ending a couple of countries that hate it. Germany demilitarized after WW2 and decided to use diplomacy and economic integration to ensure peace, instead of war. And they tried to play nice with Russia, after they killed 27 million Russians in WW2. Now everyone is acting like Putin going mad is Germany's fault. Now everybody wants Germany to be a military power again. The last two times they were, the world burned. And yes, the German approach to reign in Russia failed. But so did the US approach of treating Russia as an enemy forever.

yrgulation 5y ago
I am curious - what countries hate germany? And what country wouldnt want to defend germany in case of an attack? Edit: i dont think projecting this back on the us is the right approach. The us showed its not ready to appease a country that sponsored dictators, assassinated journalists and enslaved its own citizens. I see a few germans here and there feeling guilt for what germany did to russia, but what about what germany did to east europe? It invaded those countries making them weaker for russia to take. East europe forgave german war reparation debts and now germany is barely doing anything. Where it the guilt for that?
- orbifold 5y ago
  During Cold War France considered using tactical nuclear warheads to make Germany impassible to a Russian advance, that was one reason they refused to put their nukes under NATO control (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-france-once-pointed-its-nuclear-weapons-germany-164028 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-fran...)
- thg 5y ago
  Poland comes to mind.. Don't know about the population, but their current government really does not like us. Although they're geographically between Russia and us, so there's that.
  - yrgulation 5y ago
    100% poland would step in for germany. Matter of fact east eu memeber states account for 15% of german exports and they never voiced the idea of sanctions against germany in their disagreements. Anyway we can keep disagreeing all day about this. There is absolutely no hate towards germans or germany, i am not sure where this comes from. I imagine east europeans can also claim germans hate them for calling them cheap labour and the south europeans for calling them lazy and it would lead nowhere and so on. Germany is part and parcel of a free european history and germans are loved. End of story.
    - turbinerneiter 5y ago
      You can't just say Germans are loved end of story. Doesn't make it true. Greeks called Merkel Hitler because of helping them with their debt. Poland and Hungary is raging against Germany because of them helping refugees since about 5 years now. Whenever there is any kind of disagreement, Poland brings up WW2 reparations. Whenever a German voices concern about how their EU tax money is embezzled I Hungary, they are called arrogant.
      - yrgulation 5y ago
        Dont we all love free political discourse? Calling each other names doesnt equal to hatred. Thats how europeans do. We love throwing insults at each other. Dont tell me there are no germans calling greeks lazy yet they bear the burden of their own mistakes? I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim. Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon? Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes? We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
        turbinerneiter 5y ago
        Yeezus, you are a fun moving target. > I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim. Which I did exactly where? > Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon? Exactly, here we go. The most evil thing you can throw against Germany is that ... they helped refugees. And when east europeans travel to Germany for work they are looked down upon? I thought they were mostly getting paid! I thought the EU opened borders for people looking for work, well knowing that this puts pressure on the low wage workers in the richer countries. > Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes? Germany does, in fact, criticize other EU members for violating the EU contracts that they signed. Like when the Polish and Hungarian governments are hard at work and turning their democracies into authoritarian states modeled after Putins Russia. > We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  Just read the comment I answered to. Any many others here. Every time Germany does something or proposes something, they are called Nazis in some other countries media. Poland and Hungary have explicitly anti-liberal leaders. The Hungarian guy openly states "the end of liberal democracy". There is blatant anti Muslim racism in many European countries. The same people who now are so proud of helping the Ukrainian refugees were acting very differently towards the Syrian war refugees. Orban is Hungary for example is a despot quite similar to Putin and has been spending years of stealing EU money for him and his friends. I don't feel like fighting in drenches for this guy. I would for many Hungarian people, but not really for the ones that are fostering hate against my Muslim neighbors or the ones that steal the EU money that is meant to prop up the Hungarian economy.
  - yrgulation 5y ago
    Oh please. The german media also does a good job at creating an image of east europeans being criminal and south europeans being lazy. As does the british media portray germany as a treacherous country. But those are petty politics on all sides and not hatred. Hatred is declaring war and stating that your country shouldnt exist and denying that your people are a fake people. Europe can only defend by sticking together. I am 100% sure that poland will go to war for germany in a heartbeat as would ANY country in nato and the eu. But indeed we need to stop the petty politics of calling each other names and imposing diktats on allies. Orbans corrupt and polands politics are lame, but no where near the danger we are facing. We’ll sort these two out and germany’s diktats in the eu parliament without tanks and bullets because we dont hate each other we just behave like the siblings that we are.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  That edit just proves my point. Germany not doing anything my ass. Just check out where that sweet EU money is coming from. Think about where Eastern European people migrate to for work. Think about who is building factories and industry in these countries. And many if these countries are in NATO, so Germany is literally willing to go to war for their protection. Germany just can't win in this situation. Someone will always figure out a way to claim it's the Germans faults and that they still owe from WW2. Germany is trying to be less militaristic because of WW2 and now Germanies victims from back them are complaining about Germany not being more militaristic. What do you want them to be?
  - yrgulation 5y ago
    Ok but where is the hatred in my reply? I could also say that your reply is mainly german superiority pointing out the money it contributes. Where do the sweet german money come from? East Europe accounts for 15% of german exports. This needs to stop really, we are all in this. There is no hate in having disagreements, as there is not hate in germany being proud of its economy. But we are all in this together. We all depend on each other. And its fine to disagree but not when it comes to security and thats what i mean by germany not doing enough. I am not saying germany is a total slacker, i am saying we need to move fast and show unity. We’ll argue in the eu parliament thereafter and it wont be hate. Edit: sorry, the only reason i brought ww2 into this is in reply to you bringing it and stating that germany dhows compassion towards russia for what it did in ww2 and i said but where is the compassion for east europe. Germany is of colossal help to europe and is an undeniable positive player in european affairs. Period.
    - turbinerneiter 5y ago
      Just look at what are you saying. You are saying Germany isnt doing anything. When I point out what Germany is doing, you call it German superiority. And then you end on German is important and positive. What is it? You ask Germany to act fast and unified, basically disallowing them to disagree about anything ever. We can argue in the parliament after? Aren't you supposed to find a common stance via discissions? The whole thing is completely ridiculously focused on everyone else having an opinion what Germany is supposed to do, disregarding even so much as allowing Germany to think about it and completely ignoring everyone else. France, Italy, Hungary and some others also opposed the SWIFT exclusion. Itlay tried to get Gucci handbags excluded from the sanctions for gods sake. We are all in this together but God forbid Germany just spends an extra minute considering the effects of a certain sanction and God forbid Germany naivly tries to work towards peace by using diplomacy over weapons. We are all in this together, unless Germany isn't immediately doing whatever anyone else wants, then we quickly remind them that they didn't pay for WW2. Germany spends more than 50 bullion on its army every year, compared to Russia's 60. Now they are doing 3 times that. That money will be taken from schools, social services and taxes on the working class. How much more?
lvl100 5y ago
This is my argument too. History teaches us it’s never the people. It’s that one bad apple. Solution is simple: force Russia to demilitarize. Put sanctions on them until they do.

yrgulation 5y ago

I am curious - what countries hate germany? And what country wouldnt want to defend germany in case of an attack? Edit: i dont think projecting this back on the us is the right approach. The us showed its not ready to appease a country that sponsored dictators, assassinated journalists and enslaved its own citizens. I see a few germans here and there feeling guilt for what germany did to russia, but what about what germany did to east europe? It invaded those countries making them weaker for russia to take. East europe forgave german war reparation debts and now germany is barely doing anything. Where it the guilt for that?

orbifold 5y ago
During Cold War France considered using tactical nuclear warheads to make Germany impassible to a Russian advance, that was one reason they refused to put their nukes under NATO control (https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-france-once-pointed-its-nuclear-weapons-germany-164028 https://nationalinterest.org/blog/reboot/terrifying-why-fran...)
thg 5y ago
Poland comes to mind.. Don't know about the population, but their current government really does not like us. Although they're geographically between Russia and us, so there's that.
- yrgulation 5y ago
  100% poland would step in for germany. Matter of fact east eu memeber states account for 15% of german exports and they never voiced the idea of sanctions against germany in their disagreements. Anyway we can keep disagreeing all day about this. There is absolutely no hate towards germans or germany, i am not sure where this comes from. I imagine east europeans can also claim germans hate them for calling them cheap labour and the south europeans for calling them lazy and it would lead nowhere and so on. Germany is part and parcel of a free european history and germans are loved. End of story.
  - turbinerneiter 5y ago
    You can't just say Germans are loved end of story. Doesn't make it true. Greeks called Merkel Hitler because of helping them with their debt. Poland and Hungary is raging against Germany because of them helping refugees since about 5 years now. Whenever there is any kind of disagreement, Poland brings up WW2 reparations. Whenever a German voices concern about how their EU tax money is embezzled I Hungary, they are called arrogant.
    - yrgulation 5y ago
      Dont we all love free political discourse? Calling each other names doesnt equal to hatred. Thats how europeans do. We love throwing insults at each other. Dont tell me there are no germans calling greeks lazy yet they bear the burden of their own mistakes? I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim. Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon? Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes? We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
      - turbinerneiter 5y ago
        Yeezus, you are a fun moving target. > I think its a bit hypocritical to claim germany is a victim. Which I did exactly where? > Arent germans all too happy to welcome refugees against eu member state concerns yet when east europeans travel to germany for work they are looked down upon? Exactly, here we go. The most evil thing you can throw against Germany is that ... they helped refugees. And when east europeans travel to Germany for work they are looked down upon? I thought they were mostly getting paid! I thought the EU opened borders for people looking for work, well knowing that this puts pressure on the low wage workers in the richer countries. > Aren’t germans all too happy to point out how lame all of these other eu countries are when they make mistakes? Germany does, in fact, criticize other EU members for violating the EU contracts that they signed. Like when the Polish and Hungarian governments are hard at work and turning their democracies into authoritarian states modeled after Putins Russia. > We can spin in circles all day long and the only conclusion i can draw is that europeans replaced wars with insults and thats ok. I prefer this over invasions.
turbinerneiter 5y ago
Just read the comment I answered to. Any many others here. Every time Germany does something or proposes something, they are called Nazis in some other countries media. Poland and Hungary have explicitly anti-liberal leaders. The Hungarian guy openly states "the end of liberal democracy". There is blatant anti Muslim racism in many European countries. The same people who now are so proud of helping the Ukrainian refugees were acting very differently towards the Syrian war refugees. Orban is Hungary for example is a despot quite similar to Putin and has been spending years of stealing EU money for him and his friends. I don't feel like fighting in drenches for this guy. I would for many Hungarian people, but not really for the ones that are fostering hate against my Muslim neighbors or the ones that steal the EU money that is meant to prop up the Hungarian economy.
- yrgulation 5y ago
  Oh please. The german media also does a good job at creating an image of east europeans being criminal and south europeans being lazy. As does the british media portray germany as a treacherous country. But those are petty politics on all sides and not hatred. Hatred is declaring war and stating that your country shouldnt exist and denying that your people are a fake people. Europe can only defend by sticking together. I am 100% sure that poland will go to war for germany in a heartbeat as would ANY country in nato and the eu. But indeed we need to stop the petty politics of calling each other names and imposing diktats on allies. Orbans corrupt and polands politics are lame, but no where near the danger we are facing. We’ll sort these two out and germany’s diktats in the eu parliament without tanks and bullets because we dont hate each other we just behave like the siblings that we are.
turbinerneiter 5y ago
That edit just proves my point. Germany not doing anything my ass. Just check out where that sweet EU money is coming from. Think about where Eastern European people migrate to for work. Think about who is building factories and industry in these countries. And many if these countries are in NATO, so Germany is literally willing to go to war for their protection. Germany just can't win in this situation. Someone will always figure out a way to claim it's the Germans faults and that they still owe from WW2. Germany is trying to be less militaristic because of WW2 and now Germanies victims from back them are complaining about Germany not being more militaristic. What do you want them to be?
- yrgulation 5y ago
  Ok but where is the hatred in my reply? I could also say that your reply is mainly german superiority pointing out the money it contributes. Where do the sweet german money come from? East Europe accounts for 15% of german exports. This needs to stop really, we are all in this. There is no hate in having disagreements, as there is not hate in germany being proud of its economy. But we are all in this together. We all depend on each other. And its fine to disagree but not when it comes to security and thats what i mean by germany not doing enough. I am not saying germany is a total slacker, i am saying we need to move fast and show unity. We’ll argue in the eu parliament thereafter and it wont be hate. Edit: sorry, the only reason i brought ww2 into this is in reply to you bringing it and stating that germany dhows compassion towards russia for what it did in ww2 and i said but where is the compassion for east europe. Germany is of colossal help to europe and is an undeniable positive player in european affairs. Period.
  - turbinerneiter 5y ago
    Just look at what are you saying. You are saying Germany isnt doing anything. When I point out what Germany is doing, you call it German superiority. And then you end on German is important and positive. What is it? You ask Germany to act fast and unified, basically disallowing them to disagree about anything ever. We can argue in the parliament after? Aren't you supposed to find a common stance via discissions? The whole thing is completely ridiculously focused on everyone else having an opinion what Germany is supposed to do, disregarding even so much as allowing Germany to think about it and completely ignoring everyone else. France, Italy, Hungary and some others also opposed the SWIFT exclusion. Itlay tried to get Gucci handbags excluded from the sanctions for gods sake. We are all in this together but God forbid Germany just spends an extra minute considering the effects of a certain sanction and God forbid Germany naivly tries to work towards peace by using diplomacy over weapons. We are all in this together, unless Germany isn't immediately doing whatever anyone else wants, then we quickly remind them that they didn't pay for WW2. Germany spends more than 50 bullion on its army every year, compared to Russia's 60. Now they are doing 3 times that. That money will be taken from schools, social services and taxes on the working class. How much more?

lvl100 5y ago

This is my argument too. History teaches us it’s never the people. It’s that one bad apple. Solution is simple: force Russia to demilitarize. Put sanctions on them until they do.