6 ms·

do what is right, not what is legal

by gameswithgo 5y ago

loonster 5y ago
We should have never messed with their country in the first place.
- andybak 5y ago
  Explain?
  - loonster 5y ago
    Sitting US Senator (McCain) making speeches to protesters in Kiev. Sitting VP (Biden) threatening to withhold financial aid if prosecutor isnt fired ( who happens to be investigating firm son works for).
    - livinginfear 5y ago
      Let's not forget all the military spending money Biden has given to Ukraine during his time as president, prior to this conflict kicking off. This crisis was not sudden, or unanticipated. Russia has been warning the world for a long time to back off.
      - sgjohnson 5y ago
        Russia can go fuck itself. United States is giving military spending money to a lot of countries, and in case of Ukraine, the US has supported Ukraine militarily since the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia has no business whatsoever in the internal or foreign affairs of Ukraine that don't concern them.
        livinginfear 5y ago
        How does it not concern them? This is exactly the same scenario as the Cuban missile crisis playing out in reverse. Do you think the United States had no business in the foreign affairs of Cuba as the soviets placed ICBMs there?
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        Ukraine wasn't threatening anyone and it doesn't even have any nuclear weapons. The Soviet Union placing ICBMs 100 miles from Florida is very much a threat.
        ComputerGuru 5y ago
        That’s not how the world works. There are no “rights” for any countries, they all do what they think they can get away with (physically or in the public eye). If the US has a right to interfere (positively, by funding/supporting) then Russia has a right to warn them off. It’s geopolitics and no actions are free of consequences. There are no “rights.”
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        Yes, for this exact reason I didn't use the word "rights"
      - extheat 5y ago
        Russia has no right to tell a sovereign country how to dictate their internal affairs. As much as Putin wants to pretend historical claims give him the right to Ukraine (ala China and Taiwan), the war was completely unjustified and shows a tyrant willing to use any available means, militarily, to counteract his grievances with NATO and nationalist desire to reconnect the Soviet Union. He didn’t want a diplomatic solution, don’t be fooled, he wanted to buy time staging his troops. He knew what he had to do and that the West wouldn’t stand in his way. So he went in. At the peril for not just Russia and Ukraine, but for everyone else also.
        ComputerGuru 5y ago
        There are no “rights” granted to countries. The concept is laughable. There are only actions, vested interests, and consequences for all and on all sides.
        jollybean 5y ago
        Not really. While the threat of violence always underlies the balance of power, countries have to form some basis of civil agreement in order for things to work. In your example, imagine if you had to personal carry a gun to ensure your own safety and the fulfilment of contracts. That's not going to work. Russia has every right to lament treatment of Russian minority, at the same time, it was created by them. Russia has been very, very directly interfering in Ukranian politics and trying to turn it into a vassal state for the last 30 years. The Russian occupation in 2014 definitely created the 'permanent line of violence' in Donbas, which they are now using as a pretext for invasion. As the commenter noted: Russia can fuck themselves. In a world where nobody is perfect, they are 'bad actors' and particularly they have a lot of weapons which they throw around in that context. Screw them. US/EU options are limited because of NATO, WW3 outcomes, but we should take every other opportunity to help Ukraine. What the Ukranians have been doing in the last few days is nothing short of heroic.
        ComputerGuru 5y ago
        My point is that people can decry a nation for being a “bad actor” all they want (and I’m not saying I wouldn’t agree with that characterization) but that doesn’t ultimately mean a thing because they’re not ultimately beholden to anyone but themselves. Even contracts and agreements with other nations mean nothing if they’re willing to shoulder the consequences. In many ways, the US and China have each been trying to do very much the same thing as Russia, just taking different routes to doing so. China uses golden handcuffs in Africa and Southeast Asia (plus some strong arming of its direct neighbors), the USA uses direct handouts (cash and goods) and the promise of coming to the military aid of a country to keep others from building up their own economies or arsenals while allowing the US to host their airbases and missile silos around the world, and Russia just takes the direct approach of strong-arming its neighbors into becoming vassal states.
    - artem247 5y ago
dijonman2 5y ago
I’m grateful to see you say this, Ukraine needs help.

do what is right, not what is legal

loonster 5y ago

We should have never messed with their country in the first place.

andybak 5y ago
Explain?
- loonster 5y ago
  Sitting US Senator (McCain) making speeches to protesters in Kiev. Sitting VP (Biden) threatening to withhold financial aid if prosecutor isnt fired ( who happens to be investigating firm son works for).
  - livinginfear 5y ago
    Let's not forget all the military spending money Biden has given to Ukraine during his time as president, prior to this conflict kicking off. This crisis was not sudden, or unanticipated. Russia has been warning the world for a long time to back off.
    - sgjohnson 5y ago
      Russia can go fuck itself. United States is giving military spending money to a lot of countries, and in case of Ukraine, the US has supported Ukraine militarily since the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia has no business whatsoever in the internal or foreign affairs of Ukraine that don't concern them.
      - livinginfear 5y ago
        How does it not concern them? This is exactly the same scenario as the Cuban missile crisis playing out in reverse. Do you think the United States had no business in the foreign affairs of Cuba as the soviets placed ICBMs there?
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        Ukraine wasn't threatening anyone and it doesn't even have any nuclear weapons. The Soviet Union placing ICBMs 100 miles from Florida is very much a threat.
      - ComputerGuru 5y ago
        That’s not how the world works. There are no “rights” for any countries, they all do what they think they can get away with (physically or in the public eye). If the US has a right to interfere (positively, by funding/supporting) then Russia has a right to warn them off. It’s geopolitics and no actions are free of consequences. There are no “rights.”
        sgjohnson 5y ago
        Yes, for this exact reason I didn't use the word "rights"
    - extheat 5y ago
      Russia has no right to tell a sovereign country how to dictate their internal affairs. As much as Putin wants to pretend historical claims give him the right to Ukraine (ala China and Taiwan), the war was completely unjustified and shows a tyrant willing to use any available means, militarily, to counteract his grievances with NATO and nationalist desire to reconnect the Soviet Union. He didn’t want a diplomatic solution, don’t be fooled, he wanted to buy time staging his troops. He knew what he had to do and that the West wouldn’t stand in his way. So he went in. At the peril for not just Russia and Ukraine, but for everyone else also.
      - ComputerGuru 5y ago
        There are no “rights” granted to countries. The concept is laughable. There are only actions, vested interests, and consequences for all and on all sides.
        jollybean 5y ago
        Not really. While the threat of violence always underlies the balance of power, countries have to form some basis of civil agreement in order for things to work. In your example, imagine if you had to personal carry a gun to ensure your own safety and the fulfilment of contracts. That's not going to work. Russia has every right to lament treatment of Russian minority, at the same time, it was created by them. Russia has been very, very directly interfering in Ukranian politics and trying to turn it into a vassal state for the last 30 years. The Russian occupation in 2014 definitely created the 'permanent line of violence' in Donbas, which they are now using as a pretext for invasion. As the commenter noted: Russia can fuck themselves. In a world where nobody is perfect, they are 'bad actors' and particularly they have a lot of weapons which they throw around in that context. Screw them. US/EU options are limited because of NATO, WW3 outcomes, but we should take every other opportunity to help Ukraine. What the Ukranians have been doing in the last few days is nothing short of heroic.
        ComputerGuru 5y ago
        My point is that people can decry a nation for being a “bad actor” all they want (and I’m not saying I wouldn’t agree with that characterization) but that doesn’t ultimately mean a thing because they’re not ultimately beholden to anyone but themselves. Even contracts and agreements with other nations mean nothing if they’re willing to shoulder the consequences. In many ways, the US and China have each been trying to do very much the same thing as Russia, just taking different routes to doing so. China uses golden handcuffs in Africa and Southeast Asia (plus some strong arming of its direct neighbors), the USA uses direct handouts (cash and goods) and the promise of coming to the military aid of a country to keep others from building up their own economies or arsenals while allowing the US to host their airbases and missile silos around the world, and Russia just takes the direct approach of strong-arming its neighbors into becoming vassal states.
  - artem247 5y ago

dijonman2 5y ago

I’m grateful to see you say this, Ukraine needs help.