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> don't know if Germans were really happy that their country wasn't even onboard supplying arms to Ukraine till yesterday. I guess Germany was under pressure f

> don't know if Germans were really happy that their country wasn't even onboard supplying arms to Ukraine till yesterday. I guess Germany was under pressure from Putin regarding their gas dependency from Russia. The decision to deliver weapons after all was also a decision to accept Gas prices rising 10x fold next winter. Germans will pay quite dearly, since most of them use gas for heating.

mudita 5y ago
Yes, Germany was under pressure - and Germans including me were disgusted that our politicians caved in to that pressure, when another European country is getting invaded and so much more is on the line.
- 5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
  I just find it a bit ironic (in a very sad way) that Germany and Russia switched places with regard to what happened ~80 years ago. My brainwashed Russian relatives think that their army is there to "protect" the population from the "modern Nazi", all the while not being able to see that their self-appointed czar is the actual Nazi (which I don't think is an exaggeration anymore).
- periheli0n 5y ago
  To be fair: once Putin invaded, Germany came around. What many Germans don’t seem to realise yet is the massive changes they are in for. Some consequences are evident already now, e.g. gas rationing next winter. Many other, still hidden consequences will emerge in the next four weeks as the sanctions kick in. German and Russian economic ties went deep, their rupture will not come easy. The price might be worth paying but I hope all those Germans who were angry at their government for not delivering weapons sooner will accept those consequences with the same enthusiasm.
  - janto 5y ago
    That anger should be directed towards those that ignored and strengthened ties to Putin and his friends. There are many risks when supporting an autocratic regime. Germans will see these risks play out.
usr1106 5y ago
I think there are 2 independent problems for Germany: Not delivering weapons to any war zone has been a holy principle for German politics since 1945. Never war again war has had a strong foothold. Even now I grown up in this tradition would ask, is it better to lose the war or more lives. Putin might invade the country now, but he will not stay there forever. Most of Eastern Europe and the Baltic countries show that. Even Eastern Germany. Germany's dependency on Russian gas is a different problem. They don't dare to do much. Now delivering weapons might prolong and intensify the fights. If the pipeline (it passes through Ukraine!) gets destroyed they don't need to dare to stop financing Putin's war. They will need to solve the problem how to heat their homes. (German living abroad.)
- periheli0n 5y ago
  That is why Germany’s decision to deliver weapons is much more dramatic than many Germans realise. It is the admission that their previous policy of “Wandel durch Handel” (roughly meaning to gain influence in a country by forming tight trade links) has failed. Today it’s Russia, but they will have to follow through with China, too, plus a few other countries (gulf states e.g.).
- scotty79 5y ago
  If Putin gets Ukraine he'll definitely stay there forever. He will place his army alongside eastern Polish border and NATO will be forced to fortify the other side. Germany along with other countries of NATO will be forced to militarize which will cost way more than abandoning Russian exports. Ukraine is fighting now for less militarized and endangered Europe. I agree that sometimes it's better to loose a war. Just not this one.
  - ailef 5y ago
    > Ukraine is fighting now for less militarized and endangered Europe. I hope somebody else can appreciate the irony of this sentence like I do, given that the cause of the conflict is military NATO expansion towards east.
    - 5y ago

mudita 5y ago

Yes, Germany was under pressure - and Germans including me were disgusted that our politicians caved in to that pressure, when another European country is getting invaded and so much more is on the line.

5e92cb50239222b 5y ago
I just find it a bit ironic (in a very sad way) that Germany and Russia switched places with regard to what happened ~80 years ago. My brainwashed Russian relatives think that their army is there to "protect" the population from the "modern Nazi", all the while not being able to see that their self-appointed czar is the actual Nazi (which I don't think is an exaggeration anymore).
periheli0n 5y ago
To be fair: once Putin invaded, Germany came around. What many Germans don’t seem to realise yet is the massive changes they are in for. Some consequences are evident already now, e.g. gas rationing next winter. Many other, still hidden consequences will emerge in the next four weeks as the sanctions kick in. German and Russian economic ties went deep, their rupture will not come easy. The price might be worth paying but I hope all those Germans who were angry at their government for not delivering weapons sooner will accept those consequences with the same enthusiasm.
- janto 5y ago
  That anger should be directed towards those that ignored and strengthened ties to Putin and his friends. There are many risks when supporting an autocratic regime. Germans will see these risks play out.

usr1106 5y ago

I think there are 2 independent problems for Germany: Not delivering weapons to any war zone has been a holy principle for German politics since 1945. Never war again war has had a strong foothold. Even now I grown up in this tradition would ask, is it better to lose the war or more lives. Putin might invade the country now, but he will not stay there forever. Most of Eastern Europe and the Baltic countries show that. Even Eastern Germany. Germany's dependency on Russian gas is a different problem. They don't dare to do much. Now delivering weapons might prolong and intensify the fights. If the pipeline (it passes through Ukraine!) gets destroyed they don't need to dare to stop financing Putin's war. They will need to solve the problem how to heat their homes. (German living abroad.)

periheli0n 5y ago
That is why Germany’s decision to deliver weapons is much more dramatic than many Germans realise. It is the admission that their previous policy of “Wandel durch Handel” (roughly meaning to gain influence in a country by forming tight trade links) has failed. Today it’s Russia, but they will have to follow through with China, too, plus a few other countries (gulf states e.g.).
scotty79 5y ago
If Putin gets Ukraine he'll definitely stay there forever. He will place his army alongside eastern Polish border and NATO will be forced to fortify the other side. Germany along with other countries of NATO will be forced to militarize which will cost way more than abandoning Russian exports. Ukraine is fighting now for less militarized and endangered Europe. I agree that sometimes it's better to loose a war. Just not this one.
- ailef 5y ago
  > Ukraine is fighting now for less militarized and endangered Europe. I hope somebody else can appreciate the irony of this sentence like I do, given that the cause of the conflict is military NATO expansion towards east.
  - 5y ago