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I feel like I should support Ukraine. I don't like the idea of foreign invaders. But if I'm honest I know very little about this conflict. I know historically

by xupybd 5y ago

I feel like I should support Ukraine. I don't like the idea of foreign invaders. But if I'm honest I know very little about this conflict. I know historically the Soviet union was probably worse to it's own citizens than the Nazis were to theirs. So I'm pretty sure Russia is the bad guy. But how do you all know they are? Where do I learn more that isn't some pre-digested media message? Lately I've been let down by media narratives finding out they're often over hyped versions of the truth the leave out any nuance so I don't trust what I'm hearing on the news.

earthbee 5y ago
It's easier than ever to find out about the world via channels outside of the media. Spend some time on twitter, telegram, youtube, etc. and you can see and hear what's going on directly.
krisoft 5y ago
> But how do you all know they are? When someone attacks someone else the heavy burden to prove that they are right, just, and doing things to benefit the people is on the attacker. You can go to the primary sources comming straight from the mouth of Putin and Russia and decide for yourself if in your opinion they met this burden.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Only that it's bad that he is. RT is claiming it's not an invasion but a short term special operation to remove neo Nazis from Ukraine. I don't trust the RT version but am far too ignorant to trust my own judgement. I honestly have no idea what is really going on.
  - ithkuil 5y ago
    > RT is claiming it's not an invasion but a short term special operation to remove neo Nazis from Ukraine. At some point you have to trust your guts and decide how likely it is that Ukraine is run by neo Nazis. For example watch https://t.co/WoMOgqXTWX https://t.co/WoMOgqXTWX and judge if this is the way a neo nazi would talk
  - sofixa 5y ago
    > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Only that it's bad that he is. Because nobody knows his real motivations. He has said some obvious bullshit, and there are educated guesses that can be made ( e.g. he'll want to install a puppet government), but it's just that, guesses. In reality we don't know what's going on in Putin's head.
  - torstenvl 5y ago
    Not a perfect heuristic but generally speaking I don't find the neo-Nazi narrative to fit with the fact that the President is Jewish and vigorously opposes this "special operation." There is a unit with a large number of soldiers that like to use Norse pagan imagery. Some neo-Nazis also use Norse pagan imagery. So... it isn't impossible that there are some. However, a kernel of truth in a lie doesn't mean the whole thing is true; on the contrary, that's what makes a good lie.
    - xupybd 5y ago
      That's pretty solid generally being Jewish does disqualify someone from being involved in anything Nazi related. I really know very little about Ukraine and it's politics. I have no idea who their president is. I also strongly agree with your grain of truth making a good lie argument.
    - ailef 5y ago
      > it isn't impossible that there are some Actually, it's pretty evident that there are many. They surely still are a minority across the whole population, but they are definitely a strong one at that. The unit you're referring too is the Azov battalion. It's a paramilitary unit that has been condemned for ISIS-like war crimes, mostly against the people in Donbas. This unit has been legitimized and fully integrated into the Ukrainian army. Its leader has strong ties to Ukraine Ministry of the Interior. Also worrying is that on Jan 1 every year there are very popular marches (10-20k people in Kiev) in honor of Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator and "national hero" in Ukraine. Bandera and other Nazi collaborators that participated in the murder of around 100k (!!!) Poles, are now glorified thanks to a 2015 law which imposes criminal sanctions (I believe 5 to 10 years) to anyone who insults their name. I'm on mobile and cannot provide sources right now, but I believe this is pretty uncontroversial stuff which you can corroborate with a little bit of digging.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Then please educate us, what is the valid reason for Russia to invade Ukraine? "It's not an invasion" is pretty weak when you annexed Crimea, and declared 2 Ukrainian regions as "separate states". The borders of Ukraine are pretty well set, so please explain why Russians have a right to shift these borders in their advantage? And how shifting borders is a "short term special operation".
    - xupybd 5y ago
      I'm not arguing for Russia in anyway. I'm simply pleading my own ignorance. It want to help the people of Ukraine but I know nothing about this. I spent many years trying to figure out the Palestine vs Israel conflict. I met many very staunch on each side but I couldn't pick a side myself. It seemed like such a mess. It made me question the formation of my own nation ( new Zealand). We didn't treat the locals very well but somehow think our claim to this land is more legitimate than Israel's. Now I'm very skeptical in forming an opinion on any conflict between nations.
      - scotty79 5y ago
        Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk It'll provide you with needed context.
        koonsolo 5y ago
        Very informative video!
        xupybd 5y ago
        Brilliant, thank you very much. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
      - koonsolo 5y ago
        In that sense the Ukrainian conflict cannot be compared with Israel or New Zealand. Nobody new will be settling into Ukraine, it's all about who governs Ukraine. Ukrainians seem to want to govern their own country, using democracy. Both the ones that have Ukrainian and Russian as their first language. The rest of the world seems to agree with that. Russia seems to want to go back to the Soviet days where Ukraine is under direct control of Russia. Make up your own mind in this matter.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Why do you care about western TV? Putin had an hour long televised speech about his reasons to go to war. You can watch it on youtube. If you don't speak Russian you can read the transcript on the Kremlin's webpage. > I don't trust the RT version but am far too ignorant to trust my own judgement. Excellent basis to start educating yourself.
- peppermint_tea 5y ago
  yup, the "proofs" seems even weaker than the false WMD for invading iraq
frereubu 5y ago
Red Famine by Anne Applebaum, although focused on the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukranians by Stalin in the Holodomor famine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - is a fantastic general primer on the issues around nationalities in and around Ukraine / Russia.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Thanks I'll look into it
  - frereubu 5y ago
    She also writes for The Atlantic, so there are some shorter pieces here: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/anne-applebaum/ https://www.theatlantic.com/author/anne-applebaum/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
koonsolo 5y ago
It's pretty simple actually: Putin claims that they are sending "peace troops", because some rebels took over the pro-Russian government and installed a pro-EU government. Against the will of the people. If that is the case, why are all these Ukrainians giving such a huge fight against the Russian "liberators"? And another thing: Putin claims that Ukrainians are committing attacks against the Russian minorities in Ukraine. Guess what the 1st language of the Ukrainian president is? It's not Ukrainian, it's Russian!
scotty79 5y ago
Here's a good succint explanarion from a source who does not have a horse in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk

by xupybd 5y ago

earthbee 5y ago

It's easier than ever to find out about the world via channels outside of the media. Spend some time on twitter, telegram, youtube, etc. and you can see and hear what's going on directly.

krisoft 5y ago

> But how do you all know they are? When someone attacks someone else the heavy burden to prove that they are right, just, and doing things to benefit the people is on the attacker. You can go to the primary sources comming straight from the mouth of Putin and Russia and decide for yourself if in your opinion they met this burden.

xupybd 5y ago
Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Only that it's bad that he is. RT is claiming it's not an invasion but a short term special operation to remove neo Nazis from Ukraine. I don't trust the RT version but am far too ignorant to trust my own judgement. I honestly have no idea what is really going on.
- ithkuil 5y ago
  > RT is claiming it's not an invasion but a short term special operation to remove neo Nazis from Ukraine. At some point you have to trust your guts and decide how likely it is that Ukraine is run by neo Nazis. For example watch https://t.co/WoMOgqXTWX https://t.co/WoMOgqXTWX and judge if this is the way a neo nazi would talk
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Only that it's bad that he is. Because nobody knows his real motivations. He has said some obvious bullshit, and there are educated guesses that can be made ( e.g. he'll want to install a puppet government), but it's just that, guesses. In reality we don't know what's going on in Putin's head.
- torstenvl 5y ago
  Not a perfect heuristic but generally speaking I don't find the neo-Nazi narrative to fit with the fact that the President is Jewish and vigorously opposes this "special operation." There is a unit with a large number of soldiers that like to use Norse pagan imagery. Some neo-Nazis also use Norse pagan imagery. So... it isn't impossible that there are some. However, a kernel of truth in a lie doesn't mean the whole thing is true; on the contrary, that's what makes a good lie.
  - xupybd 5y ago
    That's pretty solid generally being Jewish does disqualify someone from being involved in anything Nazi related. I really know very little about Ukraine and it's politics. I have no idea who their president is. I also strongly agree with your grain of truth making a good lie argument.
  - ailef 5y ago
    > it isn't impossible that there are some Actually, it's pretty evident that there are many. They surely still are a minority across the whole population, but they are definitely a strong one at that. The unit you're referring too is the Azov battalion. It's a paramilitary unit that has been condemned for ISIS-like war crimes, mostly against the people in Donbas. This unit has been legitimized and fully integrated into the Ukrainian army. Its leader has strong ties to Ukraine Ministry of the Interior. Also worrying is that on Jan 1 every year there are very popular marches (10-20k people in Kiev) in honor of Stepan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator and "national hero" in Ukraine. Bandera and other Nazi collaborators that participated in the murder of around 100k (!!!) Poles, are now glorified thanks to a 2015 law which imposes criminal sanctions (I believe 5 to 10 years) to anyone who insults their name. I'm on mobile and cannot provide sources right now, but I believe this is pretty uncontroversial stuff which you can corroborate with a little bit of digging.
- koonsolo 5y ago
  > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Then please educate us, what is the valid reason for Russia to invade Ukraine? "It's not an invasion" is pretty weak when you annexed Crimea, and declared 2 Ukrainian regions as "separate states". The borders of Ukraine are pretty well set, so please explain why Russians have a right to shift these borders in their advantage? And how shifting borders is a "short term special operation".
  - xupybd 5y ago
    I'm not arguing for Russia in anyway. I'm simply pleading my own ignorance. It want to help the people of Ukraine but I know nothing about this. I spent many years trying to figure out the Palestine vs Israel conflict. I met many very staunch on each side but I couldn't pick a side myself. It seemed like such a mess. It made me question the formation of my own nation ( new Zealand). We didn't treat the locals very well but somehow think our claim to this land is more legitimate than Israel's. Now I'm very skeptical in forming an opinion on any conflict between nations.
    - scotty79 5y ago
      Watch this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk It'll provide you with needed context.
      - koonsolo 5y ago
        Very informative video!
      - xupybd 5y ago
        Brilliant, thank you very much. That's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      In that sense the Ukrainian conflict cannot be compared with Israel or New Zealand. Nobody new will be settling into Ukraine, it's all about who governs Ukraine. Ukrainians seem to want to govern their own country, using democracy. Both the ones that have Ukrainian and Russian as their first language. The rest of the world seems to agree with that. Russia seems to want to go back to the Soviet days where Ukraine is under direct control of Russia. Make up your own mind in this matter.
- krisoft 5y ago
  > Western TV isn't explaining Putin's motivation very well. Why do you care about western TV? Putin had an hour long televised speech about his reasons to go to war. You can watch it on youtube. If you don't speak Russian you can read the transcript on the Kremlin's webpage. > I don't trust the RT version but am far too ignorant to trust my own judgement. Excellent basis to start educating yourself.
peppermint_tea 5y ago
yup, the "proofs" seems even weaker than the false WMD for invading iraq

frereubu 5y ago

Red Famine by Anne Applebaum, although focused on the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukranians by Stalin in the Holodomor famine - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor - is a fantastic general primer on the issues around nationalities in and around Ukraine / Russia.

xupybd 5y ago
Thanks I'll look into it
- frereubu 5y ago
  She also writes for The Atlantic, so there are some shorter pieces here: https://www.theatlantic.com/author/anne-applebaum/ https://www.theatlantic.com/author/anne-applebaum/

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

koonsolo 5y ago

It's pretty simple actually: Putin claims that they are sending "peace troops", because some rebels took over the pro-Russian government and installed a pro-EU government. Against the will of the people. If that is the case, why are all these Ukrainians giving such a huge fight against the Russian "liberators"? And another thing: Putin claims that Ukrainians are committing attacks against the Russian minorities in Ukraine. Guess what the 1st language of the Ukrainian president is? It's not Ukrainian, it's Russian!

scotty79 5y ago

Here's a good succint explanarion from a source who does not have a horse in the game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK-yJD_fAtk