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In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to c

In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I’m also going to say that unlocking cards qualifies as progression. Unlocking pure cosmetics is not progression, and unlocking starting options (like available character classes) that are intended to be mostly balanced is a grey area. One thing classical roguelikes had was local highscore lists (they were intended to be played on a shared mainframe), which would be meaningless with meta-progression. I find it interesting that Spelunky, which follows the old formula a lot more closely, also has a mode with daily leaderboards. That’s not really something for me, but I think many people really enjoy that kind of fair competition.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
>> In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I see it more as an attempt to balance out the harsh penalty imposed by permadeath in the original roguelikes, like Nethack. I remember when I first played Nethack, I was really annoyed by that, and I really didn't see the fun in having to start all over again everytime my character died, even given the procedural generation (which means that you at least don't have to go through the same level every time). And I was really curious to see how the game developed. But I didn't have the time to grind, Grind, GRIND. So... I savescummed. Btw, one very popular game that has permadeath and procedural generation, and where the only between-game reward is unlocking new characters, is Don't Starve. But, somehow, I never see it included in the roquelikes even though it sticks much closer to the original formula than, say, Slay the Spire, Hades or Dead Cells, etc. I don't want to use the word "hardcore" but Don't Starve is fucking hardcore, compared to those other games and I never felt like I wanted to savescum in any of the other games, while I routinely savescum in Don't Starve (I even have a shell script to do it quickly).
s1artibartfast 5y ago
I think that progression is not necessary a disqualifier for roguelikes, depending on implementation. Many games use unlocks essentially as a tutorial, after which there is no metaprogression. Many games also have unlockable difficulty levels as a form of metaprogression. Slay falls into both these categories, but I don't think this is a disqualifier. All cards are unlocked after perhaps 20 hours of play, but most players will never have the skill to unlock the highest difficulty levels.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

>> In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I see it more as an attempt to balance out the harsh penalty imposed by permadeath in the original roguelikes, like Nethack. I remember when I first played Nethack, I was really annoyed by that, and I really didn't see the fun in having to start all over again everytime my character died, even given the procedural generation (which means that you at least don't have to go through the same level every time). And I was really curious to see how the game developed. But I didn't have the time to grind, Grind, GRIND. So... I savescummed. Btw, one very popular game that has permadeath and procedural generation, and where the only between-game reward is unlocking new characters, is Don't Starve. But, somehow, I never see it included in the roquelikes even though it sticks much closer to the original formula than, say, Slay the Spire, Hades or Dead Cells, etc. I don't want to use the word "hardcore" but Don't Starve is fucking hardcore, compared to those other games and I never felt like I wanted to savescum in any of the other games, while I routinely savescum in Don't Starve (I even have a shell script to do it quickly).

s1artibartfast 5y ago

I think that progression is not necessary a disqualifier for roguelikes, depending on implementation. Many games use unlocks essentially as a tutorial, after which there is no metaprogression. Many games also have unlockable difficulty levels as a form of metaprogression. Slay falls into both these categories, but I don't think this is a disqualifier. All cards are unlocked after perhaps 20 hours of play, but most players will never have the skill to unlock the highest difficulty levels.