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I like watching people play Slay the Spire online. I can see that it's very deep and sometimes quite suspenseful. It's weird to me as a NetHack and DCSS player

by schoen 5y ago

I like watching people play Slay the Spire online. I can see that it's very deep and sometimes quite suspenseful. It's weird to me as a NetHack and DCSS player that people view it as a "roguelike" (though I think "roguelite" is more common). I've spent thousands of hours playing those games and won at both of them, though not anywhere near a competitive level. And Slay the Spire feels extraordinarily unlike them to me. Like, it's turn-based, and has hitpoints, permadeath, and a randomized map. But (apart from the graphics question), it has no grid, it has a discrete combat mode, almost everything dangerous occurs only during combat mode, your inventory is only useful during combat mode, you access different parts of your inventory at different times due to the deckbuilding mechanism, you can't usefully retreat to a cleared area or otherwise cause enemies to move or not move on the map, and you have no character stats, skills, or intrinsics except max HP (although relics could be viewed as providing an equivalent to intrinsics), and there's no equippable armor, melee weapons, or ranged weapons. Is "roguelikeness" enough of a flamebait topic by now that I just ought not bring this up?

pvg 5y ago
That's sort of the point of the 'roguelite' term, to describe games that are not what people used to call 'roguelikes' (i.e. games pretty similar to actual Rogue). The key element is repetition (a game that has 'runs' as a core part of its gameplay) - there are others but most things with that mechanic are called 'roguelites'.
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hombre_fatal 5y ago
The debate isn't all that interesting. The entry paragraphs of the wikipedia article rehash the debate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike People use the term to mainly mean procedural generation, permadeath, and random upgrades. But it's like arguing whether something really is "deep house" or not on electronic music forums. At a certain point you have to accept that not everyone's definition is the exact same, appreciate the common themes, and try to enjoy the show anyways.
cole-k 5y ago
I don't know that it's a flamebait topic, I just don't see people using the term in such a strict manner as it was originally defined. But I also don't play games like NetHack. I know "rougelike" to mean a game with permadeath, some amount of randomization to vary gameplay (typically manifested in levels and items), and various levels you progress through one-by-one. So there isn't a restriction on 2D vs 3D, turn-based vs realtime, etc. "Rougelite" to me means a rougelike with permanent upgrade mechanics. It's a little nuanced, but the idea is that in a game like Hades (a rougelite) you gain points after dying to upgrade your health, attacks, etc., whereas in a game like Slay the Spire (a roguelike) you just unlock additional cards or characters to choose from (I'm going to ignore the Neow bonus... again, it's subjective). All said, I still see games on Steam classify themselves incorrectly, so perhaps the distinction I make between "-like" and "-lite" is itself more pedantic than most people care about.
- codeflo 5y ago
  In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I’m also going to say that unlocking cards qualifies as progression. Unlocking pure cosmetics is not progression, and unlocking starting options (like available character classes) that are intended to be mostly balanced is a grey area. One thing classical roguelikes had was local highscore lists (they were intended to be played on a shared mainframe), which would be meaningless with meta-progression. I find it interesting that Spelunky, which follows the old formula a lot more closely, also has a mode with daily leaderboards. That’s not really something for me, but I think many people really enjoy that kind of fair competition.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
    >> In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I see it more as an attempt to balance out the harsh penalty imposed by permadeath in the original roguelikes, like Nethack. I remember when I first played Nethack, I was really annoyed by that, and I really didn't see the fun in having to start all over again everytime my character died, even given the procedural generation (which means that you at least don't have to go through the same level every time). And I was really curious to see how the game developed. But I didn't have the time to grind, Grind, GRIND. So... I savescummed. Btw, one very popular game that has permadeath and procedural generation, and where the only between-game reward is unlocking new characters, is Don't Starve. But, somehow, I never see it included in the roquelikes even though it sticks much closer to the original formula than, say, Slay the Spire, Hades or Dead Cells, etc. I don't want to use the word "hardcore" but Don't Starve is fucking hardcore, compared to those other games and I never felt like I wanted to savescum in any of the other games, while I routinely savescum in Don't Starve (I even have a shell script to do it quickly).
Adverblessly 5y ago
If you play real roguelikes then you are probably old enough to remember the days when games starte to add "RPG Elements" to their genre description. "RPG Elements" meant then that there was some way to level up and gain stats or skills or something like that. Nowadays these games usually just tack on the word RPG if they really want to emphasize that skill trees are a meaningful part of gameplay. A similar thing happened here, originally a few games were "inpsired by roguelikes" and then had "roguelike elements". Nowadays if it has procedural generation and some form of permadeath it is a roguelike. Recently I've heard that it was common to use "roguelite" if there's some important meta-progression where you get significantly more powerful between runs (like Rogue Legacy) and "roguelike" if the meta progression mostly just unlocks new stuff for runs and doesn't make you significantly stronger (arguably like The Binding of Isaac). I won't be surprised if the meaning changes even further before really settling.
YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
I think this is a bit like how US people call orange-fleshed sweet-potatoes "yams". If I understand correctly, the orange-fleshed sweet potatoes were introduced to the market later than the white-fleshed ones and there was a need to diversify them the better to sell them as something new, so they were called "yams" by sellers and growers, I suppose. This is confusing because "yam" is a completely different plant: Although the soft, orange sweet potato is often called a "yam" in parts of North America, the sweet potato is very distinct from the botanical yam (Dioscorea), which has a cosmopolitan distribution,[8] and belongs to the monocot family Dioscoreaceae. A different crop plant, the oca (Oxalis tuberosa, a species of wood sorrel), is called a "yam" in many parts of Polynesia, including New Zealand.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato#Naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato#Naming And of course sweet potatoes, of any kind, are not potatoes at all. It's just a name that people give it that sounds familiar and that perhaps helps figure out how to use it. For "roguelikes" (or "rougelikes"? That seems to be an established spelling now) I think one important effect is that it helps direct gamers who hate permadeath away from games that have it.

by schoen 5y ago

pvg 5y ago

That's sort of the point of the 'roguelite' term, to describe games that are not what people used to call 'roguelikes' (i.e. games pretty similar to actual Rogue). The key element is repetition (a game that has 'runs' as a core part of its gameplay) - there are others but most things with that mechanic are called 'roguelites'.

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hombre_fatal 5y ago

The debate isn't all that interesting. The entry paragraphs of the wikipedia article rehash the debate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roguelike People use the term to mainly mean procedural generation, permadeath, and random upgrades. But it's like arguing whether something really is "deep house" or not on electronic music forums. At a certain point you have to accept that not everyone's definition is the exact same, appreciate the common themes, and try to enjoy the show anyways.

cole-k 5y ago

I don't know that it's a flamebait topic, I just don't see people using the term in such a strict manner as it was originally defined. But I also don't play games like NetHack. I know "rougelike" to mean a game with permadeath, some amount of randomization to vary gameplay (typically manifested in levels and items), and various levels you progress through one-by-one. So there isn't a restriction on 2D vs 3D, turn-based vs realtime, etc. "Rougelite" to me means a rougelike with permanent upgrade mechanics. It's a little nuanced, but the idea is that in a game like Hades (a rougelite) you gain points after dying to upgrade your health, attacks, etc., whereas in a game like Slay the Spire (a roguelike) you just unlock additional cards or characters to choose from (I'm going to ignore the Neow bonus... again, it's subjective). All said, I still see games on Steam classify themselves incorrectly, so perhaps the distinction I make between "-like" and "-lite" is itself more pedantic than most people care about.

codeflo 5y ago
In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I’m also going to say that unlocking cards qualifies as progression. Unlocking pure cosmetics is not progression, and unlocking starting options (like available character classes) that are intended to be mostly balanced is a grey area. One thing classical roguelikes had was local highscore lists (they were intended to be played on a shared mainframe), which would be meaningless with meta-progression. I find it interesting that Spelunky, which follows the old formula a lot more closely, also has a mode with daily leaderboards. That’s not really something for me, but I think many people really enjoy that kind of fair competition.
- YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago
  >> In whatever way these terms will eventually crystallize, I think the addition of meta-progression to the permadeath+randomization combo is important enough to call the result a new genre. It’s a very fun and addictive combination. I see it more as an attempt to balance out the harsh penalty imposed by permadeath in the original roguelikes, like Nethack. I remember when I first played Nethack, I was really annoyed by that, and I really didn't see the fun in having to start all over again everytime my character died, even given the procedural generation (which means that you at least don't have to go through the same level every time). And I was really curious to see how the game developed. But I didn't have the time to grind, Grind, GRIND. So... I savescummed. Btw, one very popular game that has permadeath and procedural generation, and where the only between-game reward is unlocking new characters, is Don't Starve. But, somehow, I never see it included in the roquelikes even though it sticks much closer to the original formula than, say, Slay the Spire, Hades or Dead Cells, etc. I don't want to use the word "hardcore" but Don't Starve is fucking hardcore, compared to those other games and I never felt like I wanted to savescum in any of the other games, while I routinely savescum in Don't Starve (I even have a shell script to do it quickly).

Adverblessly 5y ago

If you play real roguelikes then you are probably old enough to remember the days when games starte to add "RPG Elements" to their genre description. "RPG Elements" meant then that there was some way to level up and gain stats or skills or something like that. Nowadays these games usually just tack on the word RPG if they really want to emphasize that skill trees are a meaningful part of gameplay. A similar thing happened here, originally a few games were "inpsired by roguelikes" and then had "roguelike elements". Nowadays if it has procedural generation and some form of permadeath it is a roguelike. Recently I've heard that it was common to use "roguelite" if there's some important meta-progression where you get significantly more powerful between runs (like Rogue Legacy) and "roguelike" if the meta progression mostly just unlocks new stuff for runs and doesn't make you significantly stronger (arguably like The Binding of Isaac). I won't be surprised if the meaning changes even further before really settling.

YeGoblynQueenne 5y ago

I think this is a bit like how US people call orange-fleshed sweet-potatoes "yams". If I understand correctly, the orange-fleshed sweet potatoes were introduced to the market later than the white-fleshed ones and there was a need to diversify them the better to sell them as something new, so they were called "yams" by sellers and growers, I suppose. This is confusing because "yam" is a completely different plant: Although the soft, orange sweet potato is often called a "yam" in parts of North America, the sweet potato is very distinct from the botanical yam (Dioscorea), which has a cosmopolitan distribution,[8] and belongs to the monocot family Dioscoreaceae. A different crop plant, the oca (Oxalis tuberosa, a species of wood sorrel), is called a "yam" in many parts of Polynesia, including New Zealand.[9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato#Naming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sweet_potato#Naming And of course sweet potatoes, of any kind, are not potatoes at all. It's just a name that people give it that sounds familiar and that perhaps helps figure out how to use it. For "roguelikes" (or "rougelikes"? That seems to be an established spelling now) I think one important effect is that it helps direct gamers who hate permadeath away from games that have it.