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Other languages don't lack abstract concepts, but the abstract concepts are frequently more culturally or contextually dependent (and thus more difficult to rel

Other languages don't lack abstract concepts, but the abstract concepts are frequently more culturally or contextually dependent (and thus more difficult to reliably translate from one language to another) than concrete concepts. I can translate the word "exorbitant" to Spanish, but it's likely that the translation I pick in one context will be incorrect in another. On the other hand, my translation for 'cat' is likely to be reliable across a large range of contexts (barring its slang usage to represent an abstract concept). There's a reason that many loan words in English from other languages express concepts that are difficult to express naturally in English, e.g. 'schadenfreude', 'ennui'.

elless 5y ago
Yep, exactly this.
hyperpallium2 5y ago
I was thinking of the lack of conjunctions in the sample, which increases the complexity IMO - like a variable for each operator result in an algebraic expression, or CFG without BNF. It's needlessly tedious, it doesn't map to the concepts in mind - and I can't believe non-English speakers lack these mental concepts (nor that their languages lack them). And this line: [non-cross-translatable words]. These include key words of Anglo culture, such as ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘fair’ and ‘rude’, ‘fact’ and ‘evidence’. Like apple-eaters, do only English-speakers know right and wrong? I realize that that allusion itself imports the religous background of English; and I can believe that _precise_ definitions could vary between cultures - even legal systems differ in what "evidence" is permissible in court... but is the casual, non-technical meaning really that different between cultures? Or... am I just so immersed in English that its assumptions are transparent to me, like a fish who can't understand "out of water"? I guess I would like to see specifically how some of those 6 examples are non-cross-translatable...
- elless 5y ago
  If you're up for some reading, I can highly recommend Wierzbicka's Imprisoned in English which addresses most of the examples you've mentioned https://www.amazon.com/Imprisoned-English-Hazards-Default-Language/dp/0199321507 https://www.amazon.com/Imprisoned-English-Hazards-Default-La... It's not that speakers of other languages necessarily lack the concepts (we can think of things which we don't have words for), but that the concepts map differently in the language. Wierzbicka often uses the example that in Polish, there is no exact equivalent for the English 'and' - there are several words which can be used in the same contexts, but they have overlaps with other English concepts such as 'or', 'but', etc.
  - hyperpallium2 5y ago
    Thanks, sounds interesting.

elless 5y ago

Yep, exactly this.

hyperpallium2 5y ago

I was thinking of the lack of conjunctions in the sample, which increases the complexity IMO - like a variable for each operator result in an algebraic expression, or CFG without BNF. It's needlessly tedious, it doesn't map to the concepts in mind - and I can't believe non-English speakers lack these mental concepts (nor that their languages lack them). And this line: [non-cross-translatable words]. These include key words of Anglo culture, such as ‘right’ and ‘wrong’, ‘fair’ and ‘rude’, ‘fact’ and ‘evidence’. Like apple-eaters, do only English-speakers know right and wrong? I realize that that allusion itself imports the religous background of English; and I can believe that _precise_ definitions could vary between cultures - even legal systems differ in what "evidence" is permissible in court... but is the casual, non-technical meaning really that different between cultures? Or... am I just so immersed in English that its assumptions are transparent to me, like a fish who can't understand "out of water"? I guess I would like to see specifically how some of those 6 examples are non-cross-translatable...

elless 5y ago
If you're up for some reading, I can highly recommend Wierzbicka's Imprisoned in English which addresses most of the examples you've mentioned https://www.amazon.com/Imprisoned-English-Hazards-Default-Language/dp/0199321507 https://www.amazon.com/Imprisoned-English-Hazards-Default-La... It's not that speakers of other languages necessarily lack the concepts (we can think of things which we don't have words for), but that the concepts map differently in the language. Wierzbicka often uses the example that in Polish, there is no exact equivalent for the English 'and' - there are several words which can be used in the same contexts, but they have overlaps with other English concepts such as 'or', 'but', etc.
- hyperpallium2 5y ago
  Thanks, sounds interesting.