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HN is a polite platform so I will just leave if up to others to imagine the string of curse words running through my head right now. This is so bad. And worst

HN is a polite platform so I will just leave if up to others to imagine the string of curse words running through my head right now. This is so bad. And worst of all, it was so predictable.

rayiner 5y ago
It’s goddamn stupid. The better example is World War I, not World War II. We’re being dragged into a war over a intra-Slavic dispute that has nothing to do with the rest of us.
- nopenopenopeno 5y ago
  Yes, there is a pointed reason for the Western elite to compare every foreign affair (and even domestic affairs nowadays) to WW2. It was “the good war” and if every other war is just like it then adventurism is justified.
- landemva 5y ago
  USA can leave NATO.
- QuarterReptile 5y ago
  So, what should Ukrainians do if they want to live in a society not controlled by Putin? Do they just have to leave? Do they need to get enough non-Slavic residents to immigrate so your racist policy no longer applies? It's reprehensible that the West is standing by while a fellow Western country is overrun. We're so scared of some hardship (or convinced that only Anericans have the mental stability to not shoot nukes) that we're allowing Ukraine to be demolished by Russia while we have the equipment to stop the whole thing in its tracks, just standing by all around Europe.
  - marcusverus 5y ago
    > So, what should Ukrainians do if they want to live in a society not controlled by Putin? Fight like hell? The Afghans have fought off two world powers in the last century. The Ukrainians can do the same (with plenty of low-key, low-risk support). > It's reprehensible that the West is standing by while a fellow Western country is overrun. We're so scared of some hardship (or convinced that only Anericans have the mental stability to not shoot nukes) that we're allowing Ukraine to be demolished by Russia while we have the equipment to stop the whole thing in its tracks, just standing by all around Europe. It is not reasonable to expect the NATO members to risk nuclear annihilation to actively defend Ukraine.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > Fight like hell? They are doing just that. > It is not reasonable to expect the NATO members to risk nuclear annihilation to actively defend Ukraine. We'll let them burn then I guess? /s
      - rhexs 5y ago
        Well, unfortunately, yes? The EU can fund and field a military if they so please. And with recent events, they might want to.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Ok, so a single nuke gets dropped on NYC or LA. Just the one. And Europe stands back and says: "Well, unfortunately we'll let them burn, because otherwise Putin might do the same to us." What would you make of that?
        rayiner 5y ago
        Europe would have a responsibility to their people to do what’s best for them.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Right, like how after 9/11 Europe had a responsibility to ignore the USA? But we didn't. And even if the way that was handled sucks and the intelligence was faulty and I was utterly against invading Iraq because it seemed the wrong thing to do, right after 9/11 the whole world stood with the USA. They fucked up the aftermath of that but in the moment there was zero doubt about what was the right thing to do: to stand as one.
        marcusverus 5y ago
        > But we didn't. And even if the way that was handled sucks and the intelligence was faulty and I was utterly against invading Iraq because it seemed the wrong thing to do, right after 9/11 the whole world stood with the USA. The cost-benefit analysis was entirely different. Europe got on the bandwagon with the global superpower. The benefit was that they stayed in the good graces of the global superpower. The risks were not existential—-they signed on for a pair of wars against third world countries. There was zero risk of provoking a world war. There was zero risk of atomic bombs being dropped at home. Compare to the current crisis. The benefit to the US of fighting the Ruskies is—-what? We would gain weak ally. The costs would be our THIRD Great War fought in Europe for the benefit of Europeans. With the risk of world war or even nuclear war. And don’t preach to Americans about doing “the right thing” in Europe. Hundreds of thousands of our boys are buried on your soil—-the cost of a long history of ‘standing as one’ with our European allies.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    Ukraine has far more in common with Russia culturally than with America. My dad worked extensively in Ukraine doing public health development. He was remarking to me the other day how even though it and Russia purported to be part of Europe, they reminded him much more of the developing nations in Asia that he’s worked in than Western Europe.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > Ukraine has far more in common with Russia culturally than with America. So do Serbia, Bulgaria and to a much lesser extent Poland, Latvia and a bunch of others. That does not mean that they are not sovereign countries though. > My dad worked extensively in Ukraine doing public health development. He was remarking to me the other day how even though it and Russia purported to be part of Europe, they reminded him much more of the developing nations in Asia that he’s worked in than Western Europe. They are culturally and ideologically closer than anything in Asia. Economically, maybe.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  If France had had that attitude in the past the United States would likely not even exist. And if the USA would have that attitude in the past then they would be speaking German in France right now. The United States has a pretty strong foundation when it comes to trying to do the right thing. They may not always actually do the right thing, they may not always do it timely, especially not when looked at through the lens of history. But they will try their very best to do what is right. And right now, what's right is to stand with Ukraine (where quite a few Americans, about a million, can find some of their roots), even if that has risks associated with it. And if you don't want to do that then there are plenty of options on the table.
  - captainredbeard 5y ago
    Didn’t France help the Revolutionaries because they hated the English and wanted to bleed their Continental power?
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Yes, that was definitely a factor. But post revolution France did not like the English for many reasons. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/how-france-helped-win-american-revolution https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/how-france-helpe...
  - rayiner 5y ago
    > If France had had that attitude in the past the United States would likely not even exist. And it probably would have been better that way! The British would have ended slavery earlier, and we would have developed like Canada and Australia. Nobody knows what’s the “right thing” when it comes to the development and history of nations. The United States has good intentions, but it’s foreign policy is tremendously destructive because Americans have a childlike understanding of how the world works.
    - cuteboy19 5y ago
      That's not how it works. The British would have faced the same problems that the Americans did: Half a country that is deeply dependent on slavery and completely unwilling to let go

HN is a polite platform so I will just leave if up to others to imagine the string of curse words running through my head right now. This is so bad. And worst of all, it was so predictable.

rayiner 5y ago

It’s goddamn stupid. The better example is World War I, not World War II. We’re being dragged into a war over a intra-Slavic dispute that has nothing to do with the rest of us.

nopenopenopeno 5y ago
Yes, there is a pointed reason for the Western elite to compare every foreign affair (and even domestic affairs nowadays) to WW2. It was “the good war” and if every other war is just like it then adventurism is justified.
landemva 5y ago
USA can leave NATO.
QuarterReptile 5y ago
So, what should Ukrainians do if they want to live in a society not controlled by Putin? Do they just have to leave? Do they need to get enough non-Slavic residents to immigrate so your racist policy no longer applies? It's reprehensible that the West is standing by while a fellow Western country is overrun. We're so scared of some hardship (or convinced that only Anericans have the mental stability to not shoot nukes) that we're allowing Ukraine to be demolished by Russia while we have the equipment to stop the whole thing in its tracks, just standing by all around Europe.
- marcusverus 5y ago
  > So, what should Ukrainians do if they want to live in a society not controlled by Putin? Fight like hell? The Afghans have fought off two world powers in the last century. The Ukrainians can do the same (with plenty of low-key, low-risk support). > It's reprehensible that the West is standing by while a fellow Western country is overrun. We're so scared of some hardship (or convinced that only Anericans have the mental stability to not shoot nukes) that we're allowing Ukraine to be demolished by Russia while we have the equipment to stop the whole thing in its tracks, just standing by all around Europe. It is not reasonable to expect the NATO members to risk nuclear annihilation to actively defend Ukraine.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > Fight like hell? They are doing just that. > It is not reasonable to expect the NATO members to risk nuclear annihilation to actively defend Ukraine. We'll let them burn then I guess? /s
    - rhexs 5y ago
      Well, unfortunately, yes? The EU can fund and field a military if they so please. And with recent events, they might want to.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Ok, so a single nuke gets dropped on NYC or LA. Just the one. And Europe stands back and says: "Well, unfortunately we'll let them burn, because otherwise Putin might do the same to us." What would you make of that?
        rayiner 5y ago
        Europe would have a responsibility to their people to do what’s best for them.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Right, like how after 9/11 Europe had a responsibility to ignore the USA? But we didn't. And even if the way that was handled sucks and the intelligence was faulty and I was utterly against invading Iraq because it seemed the wrong thing to do, right after 9/11 the whole world stood with the USA. They fucked up the aftermath of that but in the moment there was zero doubt about what was the right thing to do: to stand as one.
        marcusverus 5y ago
        > But we didn't. And even if the way that was handled sucks and the intelligence was faulty and I was utterly against invading Iraq because it seemed the wrong thing to do, right after 9/11 the whole world stood with the USA. The cost-benefit analysis was entirely different. Europe got on the bandwagon with the global superpower. The benefit was that they stayed in the good graces of the global superpower. The risks were not existential—-they signed on for a pair of wars against third world countries. There was zero risk of provoking a world war. There was zero risk of atomic bombs being dropped at home. Compare to the current crisis. The benefit to the US of fighting the Ruskies is—-what? We would gain weak ally. The costs would be our THIRD Great War fought in Europe for the benefit of Europeans. With the risk of world war or even nuclear war. And don’t preach to Americans about doing “the right thing” in Europe. Hundreds of thousands of our boys are buried on your soil—-the cost of a long history of ‘standing as one’ with our European allies.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Ukraine has far more in common with Russia culturally than with America. My dad worked extensively in Ukraine doing public health development. He was remarking to me the other day how even though it and Russia purported to be part of Europe, they reminded him much more of the developing nations in Asia that he’s worked in than Western Europe.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > Ukraine has far more in common with Russia culturally than with America. So do Serbia, Bulgaria and to a much lesser extent Poland, Latvia and a bunch of others. That does not mean that they are not sovereign countries though. > My dad worked extensively in Ukraine doing public health development. He was remarking to me the other day how even though it and Russia purported to be part of Europe, they reminded him much more of the developing nations in Asia that he’s worked in than Western Europe. They are culturally and ideologically closer than anything in Asia. Economically, maybe.
jacquesm 5y ago
If France had had that attitude in the past the United States would likely not even exist. And if the USA would have that attitude in the past then they would be speaking German in France right now. The United States has a pretty strong foundation when it comes to trying to do the right thing. They may not always actually do the right thing, they may not always do it timely, especially not when looked at through the lens of history. But they will try their very best to do what is right. And right now, what's right is to stand with Ukraine (where quite a few Americans, about a million, can find some of their roots), even if that has risks associated with it. And if you don't want to do that then there are plenty of options on the table.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  Didn’t France help the Revolutionaries because they hated the English and wanted to bleed their Continental power?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Yes, that was definitely a factor. But post revolution France did not like the English for many reasons. https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/how-france-helped-win-american-revolution https://www.battlefields.org/learn/articles/how-france-helpe...
- rayiner 5y ago
  > If France had had that attitude in the past the United States would likely not even exist. And it probably would have been better that way! The British would have ended slavery earlier, and we would have developed like Canada and Australia. Nobody knows what’s the “right thing” when it comes to the development and history of nations. The United States has good intentions, but it’s foreign policy is tremendously destructive because Americans have a childlike understanding of how the world works.
  - cuteboy19 5y ago
    That's not how it works. The British would have faced the same problems that the Americans did: Half a country that is deeply dependent on slavery and completely unwilling to let go