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The US has done a lot of horrible things, but this is an obvious case of made up pretexts. Russia knows we weren't letting Ukraine into NATO anytime soon (we wo

by tedivm 5y ago

The US has done a lot of horrible things, but this is an obvious case of made up pretexts. Russia knows we weren't letting Ukraine into NATO anytime soon (we would have already), and outside of that we've been playing pretty nicely with Russia these days. This is just imperialism.

voisin 5y ago
I fully agree. > we've been playing pretty nicely with Russia these days Last President was quite the fan if I recall.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Frankly, I wonder if the Ukraine plans were laid with the assumption of a second Trump term, and they decided to just go ahead anyways. The US response seems likely to have been... very different if he was still in power.
  - chernevik 5y ago
    Nah, it was Trump who started sending Javelins in 2018. Also under whom the US military smashed a column of Russian mercenaries in Syria, killing 90 of them. Trump flattered Putin publicly, but his policies were never sympathetic to Russia.
    - ceejayoz 5y ago
      > Nah, it was Trump who started sending Javelins in 2018. Ooof. That's an... interesting twist on the facts. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/12/i-would-like-you-to-do-us-a-favor-the-30-minute-phone-call-that-changed-trumps-presidency.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/12/i-would-like-you-to-do-us-a-... "Zelenskiy chatted about how he wanted to 'drain the swamp' in Kyiv and how he wished the European Union would provide more financial support. He told Trump that Ukraine was ready to buy more Javelin anti-tank missiles from the United States. The next 10 words that came out of Trump’s mouth — 'I would like you to do us a favor, though' — are what triggered the House impeachment inquiry that has imperiled his presidency." https://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-leaving-out-key-detail-trump-javelin-sale-to-ukraine-2019-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-leaving-out-key-... "At the time, Trump had placed roughly $400 million of congressionally-approved security assistance to Ukraine on hold, and the president is accused of dangling the aid over Zelensky as part of a broad scheme to pressure him into launching the investigations. The aid was ultimately released on September 11, less than a week after three House committees launched investigations into his administration's efforts to pressure Ukraine to help his reelection campaign." As for the mercenary incident, Americans came under attack by Syrian forces that included Russians. It was by no means a planned op. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american...
      - chernevik 5y ago
        Thanks for the links.
    - tedivm 5y ago
      This comment has basically no basis in reality.
- l33t2328 5y ago
  As he demanded countries meet their NATO obligations and chastised Germany for becoming dependent on Russian energy...right
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    His criticism of NATO went a little further than that. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden... > Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Current and former officials who support the alliance said they feared Mr. Trump could return to his threat as allied military spending continued to lag behind the goals the president had set. > In the days around a tumultuous NATO summit meeting last summer, they said, Mr. Trump told his top national security officials that he did not see the point of the military alliance, which he presented as a drain on the United States. It's a little hard to see that as something Putin would've been mad about.
qqtt 5y ago
George Bush was actively campaigning for both Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO at the 2008 Bucharest summit in April, likely a direct link to the subsequent invasion of Georgia which occurred immediately after in August. USA relations with Russia have in general been pretty schizophrenic. Minor sanctions after the Georgia occupation, "Reset button" politics by the Obama administration, larger scale sanctions after the Ukraine Crimea occupation, Trump fighting additional sanctions. Let's not forget Biden caught flak for actually waiving sanctions on Russia before he flipped into his current role as strong man. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-comes-under-fire-congress-after-waiving-sanctions-russian-gas-n1267975 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-com...
- ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
  George Bush hasn’t been President for 13 years. Regardless no one believed Ukraine was going to join NATO then, or since.

by tedivm 5y ago

voisin 5y ago

I fully agree. > we've been playing pretty nicely with Russia these days Last President was quite the fan if I recall.

ceejayoz 5y ago
Frankly, I wonder if the Ukraine plans were laid with the assumption of a second Trump term, and they decided to just go ahead anyways. The US response seems likely to have been... very different if he was still in power.
- chernevik 5y ago
  Nah, it was Trump who started sending Javelins in 2018. Also under whom the US military smashed a column of Russian mercenaries in Syria, killing 90 of them. Trump flattered Putin publicly, but his policies were never sympathetic to Russia.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > Nah, it was Trump who started sending Javelins in 2018. Ooof. That's an... interesting twist on the facts. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/12/i-would-like-you-to-do-us-a-favor-the-30-minute-phone-call-that-changed-trumps-presidency.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/12/i-would-like-you-to-do-us-a-... "Zelenskiy chatted about how he wanted to 'drain the swamp' in Kyiv and how he wished the European Union would provide more financial support. He told Trump that Ukraine was ready to buy more Javelin anti-tank missiles from the United States. The next 10 words that came out of Trump’s mouth — 'I would like you to do us a favor, though' — are what triggered the House impeachment inquiry that has imperiled his presidency." https://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-leaving-out-key-detail-trump-javelin-sale-to-ukraine-2019-11 https://www.businessinsider.com/republicans-leaving-out-key-... "At the time, Trump had placed roughly $400 million of congressionally-approved security assistance to Ukraine on hold, and the president is accused of dangling the aid over Zelensky as part of a broad scheme to pressure him into launching the investigations. The aid was ultimately released on September 11, less than a week after three House committees launched investigations into his administration's efforts to pressure Ukraine to help his reelection campaign." As for the mercenary incident, Americans came under attack by Syrian forces that included Russians. It was by no means a planned op. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american-commandos-russian-mercenaries-syria.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/24/world/middleeast/american...
    - chernevik 5y ago
      Thanks for the links.
  - tedivm 5y ago
    This comment has basically no basis in reality.
l33t2328 5y ago
As he demanded countries meet their NATO obligations and chastised Germany for becoming dependent on Russian energy...right
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  His criticism of NATO went a little further than that. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-presiden... > Senior administration officials told The New York Times that several times over the course of 2018, Mr. Trump privately said he wanted to withdraw from the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. Current and former officials who support the alliance said they feared Mr. Trump could return to his threat as allied military spending continued to lag behind the goals the president had set. > In the days around a tumultuous NATO summit meeting last summer, they said, Mr. Trump told his top national security officials that he did not see the point of the military alliance, which he presented as a drain on the United States. It's a little hard to see that as something Putin would've been mad about.

qqtt 5y ago

George Bush was actively campaigning for both Ukraine and Georgia to join NATO at the 2008 Bucharest summit in April, likely a direct link to the subsequent invasion of Georgia which occurred immediately after in August. USA relations with Russia have in general been pretty schizophrenic. Minor sanctions after the Georgia occupation, "Reset button" politics by the Obama administration, larger scale sanctions after the Ukraine Crimea occupation, Trump fighting additional sanctions. Let's not forget Biden caught flak for actually waiving sanctions on Russia before he flipped into his current role as strong man. https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-comes-under-fire-congress-after-waiving-sanctions-russian-gas-n1267975 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/national-security/biden-com...

ZanyProgrammer 5y ago
George Bush hasn’t been President for 13 years. Regardless no one believed Ukraine was going to join NATO then, or since.