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This is more than just a quirk. Lets go through the bogons here: 1. Signal system confuses notifications with commands 2. API ties windows to threads 3. Sys

by molo_ 15y ago

This is more than just a quirk. Lets go through the bogons here: 1. Signal system confuses notifications with commands 2. API ties windows to threads 3. System allows you to send WM_DESTROY from one thread to another even though it provides undefined behavior 4. DestroyWindow() can only be called from a particular thread (related to item #2) 5. The API doesn't detect that the window has been destroyed as far as the application is concerned (whatever happens in ForgetWorkerThread() or PostQuitMessage(), the window actually goes away) without a DestroyWindow() call. In short, WTF. [edit: format]

innes 15y ago
2. API ties windows to threads What UI APIs are there that don't have a concept of UI thread(s)? Coming from Windows, I'm used to UI work needing to be done on a UI thread. I randomly googled these comments: "Never, ever, touch the UI from outside your UI thread, in any version of Qt." "Android UI toolkit is not thread-safe and must always be manipulated on the UI thread." google "iOS 'non-UI thread'": 60 million results. javascript: everything UI-related runs on one thread. Do you do much UI coding?
- molo_ 15y ago
  This is about an OS-layer API, not a windowing toolkit API. Tying the window to a thread at this layer makes it impossible to have a single-threaded UI application. It is inflexible.
  - to3m 15y ago
    What exactly is the problem with the approach?
  - innes 15y ago
    Sorry. I've read your comment a couple of times and am unable to make any sense of it. Win32 is a (dated, clunky) API for writing GUIs (in part). "OS-layer" is babble in this context. And yeah, i would stop signing your posts - it comes across as conceited somehow; like each comment is a big deal.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    "This is about an OS-layer API, not a windowing toolkit API" What does that even mean? Of course you can have single-threaded UI applications in Windows, the majority of them are. Have you ever written a Windows application in C or C++?
roel_v 15y ago
"2. API ties windows to threads" OK, so what's the alternative? Automatic locking at OS-level? How can the performance penalty in those many cases where it is not needed be justified? Same goes for your arguments 3, 4 and 5 btw. Why should such low-level functionality impose important design decisions on those who follow the documentation, just to protect the beginners who don't? I much prefer my raw control, thanks - and I'll happily take the few times I shoot myself in the foot with it, err, with it. Despite its warts and its legacy cruft, the win32 is quite flexible, and easy to understand - at a very basic level, not much studying of under-the-hood stuff required. For an OS-level API, it packs a lot of power into a small set of concepts.
- molo_ 15y ago
  You argue for more control, but tying windows to threads at the OS layer is actually enforcing less control.
  - chollida1 15y ago
    Just a quick meta response because i see you're new. You don't need to sign your posts as your user name appears above your post.
    - molo_ 15y ago
      Hi, thanks but that is what I've been doing for ages.
      - molo_ 15y ago
        Is it really necessary to downmod me for that?
        chollida1 15y ago
        I think we're way off topic but I'll try to end on a good note by pointing out that I can't downvote you as you responded to my post. You'll find the community here is great, but you should try to play by it's rules:)

by molo_ 15y ago

innes 15y ago

2. API ties windows to threads What UI APIs are there that don't have a concept of UI thread(s)? Coming from Windows, I'm used to UI work needing to be done on a UI thread. I randomly googled these comments: "Never, ever, touch the UI from outside your UI thread, in any version of Qt." "Android UI toolkit is not thread-safe and must always be manipulated on the UI thread." google "iOS 'non-UI thread'": 60 million results. javascript: everything UI-related runs on one thread. Do you do much UI coding?

molo_ 15y ago
This is about an OS-layer API, not a windowing toolkit API. Tying the window to a thread at this layer makes it impossible to have a single-threaded UI application. It is inflexible.
- to3m 15y ago
  What exactly is the problem with the approach?
- innes 15y ago
  Sorry. I've read your comment a couple of times and am unable to make any sense of it. Win32 is a (dated, clunky) API for writing GUIs (in part). "OS-layer" is babble in this context. And yeah, i would stop signing your posts - it comes across as conceited somehow; like each comment is a big deal.
- roel_v 15y ago
  "This is about an OS-layer API, not a windowing toolkit API" What does that even mean? Of course you can have single-threaded UI applications in Windows, the majority of them are. Have you ever written a Windows application in C or C++?

roel_v 15y ago

"2. API ties windows to threads" OK, so what's the alternative? Automatic locking at OS-level? How can the performance penalty in those many cases where it is not needed be justified? Same goes for your arguments 3, 4 and 5 btw. Why should such low-level functionality impose important design decisions on those who follow the documentation, just to protect the beginners who don't? I much prefer my raw control, thanks - and I'll happily take the few times I shoot myself in the foot with it, err, with it. Despite its warts and its legacy cruft, the win32 is quite flexible, and easy to understand - at a very basic level, not much studying of under-the-hood stuff required. For an OS-level API, it packs a lot of power into a small set of concepts.

molo_ 15y ago
You argue for more control, but tying windows to threads at the OS layer is actually enforcing less control.
- chollida1 15y ago
  Just a quick meta response because i see you're new. You don't need to sign your posts as your user name appears above your post.
  - molo_ 15y ago
    Hi, thanks but that is what I've been doing for ages.
    - molo_ 15y ago
      Is it really necessary to downmod me for that?
      - chollida1 15y ago
        I think we're way off topic but I'll try to end on a good note by pointing out that I can't downvote you as you responded to my post. You'll find the community here is great, but you should try to play by it's rules:)