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Heh. You can really tell in this thread who has grown up with guns and who hasn't. I remember my grandpa taking me under some bridge somewhere and letting me l

Heh. You can really tell in this thread who has grown up with guns and who hasn't. I remember my grandpa taking me under some bridge somewhere and letting me loose off a few .45 rounds. I was about 8. It was supremely stupid. In fact, I have a vivid memory of it almost being a disaster. My grandpa lived in a bad part of Alton, IL. His house got broken into on a regular basis. So he kept a loaded pistol right next to his bed. Somehow I found this thing at around the same age, and started fooling around with it. But then something interesting happened. The thing my grandpa taught me: never to assume a gun wasn't loaded, and always check it. So I checked it, and sure enough, I did not squeeze the trigger that day. My point is, it doesn't take much training to be safe around weapons. Military tactics are an entirely different matter, of course. It's not a great idea to have random people running around with guns. But they're not random people. They're defending their home. If SF was under attack by Japan in an alternate universe, wouldn't you do the same? Seeing Kiev unfold makes me feel a strange kinship with Washington, of all people. There too, people had very little combat training, and were pretty much arming the neighbors. But it turns out that armed neighbors can sometimes be effective. Here's a fascinating piece of propaganda for you: https://twitter.com/peedutuisk/status/1497310882069581824 https://twitter.com/peedutuisk/status/1497310882069581824 It's propaganda, but it's very good propaganda. For a brief moment, I was actually crazy enough to wish I was out there helping them.

Avicebron 5y ago
To be fair to myself and you, I grew up in rural america around with guns everywhere. Took hunter safety, whole shebang, never really got around to buying myself or using automatic weapons. I see your point on the American revolution, but please, let's not forget times have changed. the US population were on home ground with rifled barrels, easier to aim and using geurilla tactics against an old british standing line firing system (also their rifles weren't always rifled ;) ). The chance that a population of civilians with weapons goes to hide in a bunker with or without unarmed people is higher than it is with military troops, and what happens when Russian intel says there are enemy combatants hiding in a bunker vs a bunch of civilians hiding in a bunker...chances go up that they will receive a bunker buster knock and talk more than if there were unarmed people there. this isn't 1776.
- stickfigure 5y ago
  Was it not Stalin who said "quantity has a quality all its own?" There are hundreds of thousands of Russian troops, but tens of millions of Ukranians capable of using rifles semi-effectively. And they are literally everywhere in the country.
- redisman 5y ago
  Battles inside a city is still armored vehicles and men on foot. Things haven’t changed all that much. Rifles and improvised bombs go a long way.
  - jacobolus 5y ago
    If pseudonymous self-professed US veterans of Afghanistan/Iraq wars commenting online are to be trusted, balloons full of paint are among the most effective anti-tank weapons in urban fighting.
    - gonzo41 5y ago
      That works but a Molotov cocktail on the engine air intake is also pretty good and easy too. The goal is to get the crew out of the tank. Usually you have a LOT of infantry around tanks to provide security
- dragontamer 5y ago
  The Ukrainians aren't some ragtag group. Literally thousands of antitank weapons have been supplied to them. The Ukrainian military, and even their air force, are still coordinated and operational. --------- This means that rifle militia aren't there to kill a tank. They are there to force the tank commander inside with small arms fire. Tanks are famously difficult to see out of. Once in there, the tank is a sitting duck to a Javelin or Panzerfaust will kill the tank reliably. This isn't 100 poorly trained militia vs tank. The situation is closer to 100 poorly trained militia + 5 professional soldiers armed with NATO top of the line antitank missiles vs tank.
- tiahura 5y ago
  Having grown up around guns, you should know that modern semi and fully automatic rifles are 100x more n00b friendly than an 18th century muzzle loader.
rossdavidh 5y ago
I feel obligated to point out that a major reversal in Washington's fortunes came when Lafeyette (and a few other European officers such as Steuben) trained American colonists, and they became dramatically more effective. Who knows, maybe there are equivalents of Lafeyette and Steuben among the Ukrainian people today, but if so I wouldn't know about it (or expect to).
- Moru 5y ago
  Ukraina has been living with the threat of war for a while now. They have had help training from both neighbour and not so neighbour countries since 2015 at least.
  - helge9210 5y ago
    > Ukraina has been living with the threat of war for a while now. It was known since at least 2005
- Geonode 5y ago
  I'm sure there are hundreds of US and NATO "advisors" on the ground, they show up in every conflict, but are not heavily reported on.
34679 5y ago
I've seen a few videos of citizens lining up for weapons, and IMO, the troubling thing is the lack of uniforms. If Russians can't tell the difference between civilians and combatants, everyone becomes a target.
- lazide 5y ago
  ‘Legally?’ Nope. But that is literally how every invasion ends up until the population is ‘pacified’. It’s why guerilla war works so well too. The invaders/gov’t can’t tell who is actually an adversary until it is late, and attempts to guess always kill innocent civilians which just draws more anger and hate from the local population and creates more rebels/guerillas. This is why people say ‘war is hell - because it is.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Russia is already attacking hospitals and apartment buildings. The time has passed for that little problem. https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1497514747385757699 https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/149751474738575769...
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-kyivteacher/26ukraine-briefing-kyivteacher-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-photo-4sub/merlin_202886421_578676e3-2b80-4567-a2f6-a2eeb970aaa4-superJumbo.jpg?auto=webp&quality=90 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-photos-volunteers-1sub/merlin_202895034_2d95d62c-255e-4c3d-8fc3-01592fdbb3b2-superJumbo.jpg?auto=webp&quality=90 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-blog-rpg/26ukraine-blog-rpg-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-washington-defense/26ukraine-briefing-washington-defense-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... Yellow armbands seem to be the militia indicator.
throw0101a 5y ago
> My point is, it doesn't take much training to be safe around weapons. And yet too many people do not get any kind of training: > Student accidentally shoots self in incident at Huntsville elementary school * https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2022/02/student-shot-in-incident-at-huntsville-elementary-school.html https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2022/02/student-shot-in-i... > Man accidentally shoots self while playing with gun along San Diego interstate * https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/north-county-news/man-accidentally-shots-self-while-playing-with-gun-along-san-diego-interstate https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/north-county-news/man... > Man accidentally shot himself in hand while cleaning his gun in Mount Pleasant * https://journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-accidentally-shot-himself-in-hand-while-cleaning-his-gun-in-mount-pleasant/article_ff817ba4-536c-5067-8895-c0d2bd5a76d6.html https://journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-acc... Some folks probably shouldn't have guns because of emotional control issues: > A man was arrested early morning after shots were fired at another man during what the sheriff's department is calling a road rage dispute in Coachella. * https://amp.desertsun.com/amp/6909957001 https://amp.desertsun.com/amp/6909957001 > Father in custody after directing 4-year-old to shoot at officers in McDonald's drive-thru * https://kutv.com/news/local/suspect-in-custody-after-shooting-at-midvale-utah-mcdonalds-no-injuries https://kutv.com/news/local/suspect-in-custody-after-shootin... More: * https://twitter.com/well_regulated_ https://twitter.com/well_regulated_
- helge9210 5y ago
  > And yet too many people do not get any kind of training: In Ukraine every man over 40 years old received a training on basic infantry tactics and using assault rifle AK-74 and hand grenade RGD-5 during high school years.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    Presumably people in the US National Guard are also trained: > Guard soldier killed in tragic accidental shooting by roommate, fellow Guardsman * https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/02/02/guard-soldier-killed-in-tragic-accidental-shooting-by-roommate-fellow-guardsman/ https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/02/02/guard-so... The use of the word "accident" in the above story is also not accurate IMHO, for the same reason why "car accident" isn't: > The two groups behind the recent campaign — Transportation Alternatives and Families for Safe Streets — argue that the term "accident" makes it seem like crashes are inevitable, rather than preventable. In a subtle way, it normalizes the crash and discourages us from looking more deeply into their causes — whether alcohol, reckless driving, or bad street design. * https://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/8995151/crash-not-accident https://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/8995151/crash-not-accident Certainly the training they got during service is good, but the GP's point about not much training being needed isn't as simple as he makes it out IMHO.

Avicebron 5y ago

To be fair to myself and you, I grew up in rural america around with guns everywhere. Took hunter safety, whole shebang, never really got around to buying myself or using automatic weapons. I see your point on the American revolution, but please, let's not forget times have changed. the US population were on home ground with rifled barrels, easier to aim and using geurilla tactics against an old british standing line firing system (also their rifles weren't always rifled ;) ). The chance that a population of civilians with weapons goes to hide in a bunker with or without unarmed people is higher than it is with military troops, and what happens when Russian intel says there are enemy combatants hiding in a bunker vs a bunch of civilians hiding in a bunker...chances go up that they will receive a bunker buster knock and talk more than if there were unarmed people there. this isn't 1776.

stickfigure 5y ago
Was it not Stalin who said "quantity has a quality all its own?" There are hundreds of thousands of Russian troops, but tens of millions of Ukranians capable of using rifles semi-effectively. And they are literally everywhere in the country.
redisman 5y ago
Battles inside a city is still armored vehicles and men on foot. Things haven’t changed all that much. Rifles and improvised bombs go a long way.
- jacobolus 5y ago
  If pseudonymous self-professed US veterans of Afghanistan/Iraq wars commenting online are to be trusted, balloons full of paint are among the most effective anti-tank weapons in urban fighting.
  - gonzo41 5y ago
    That works but a Molotov cocktail on the engine air intake is also pretty good and easy too. The goal is to get the crew out of the tank. Usually you have a LOT of infantry around tanks to provide security
dragontamer 5y ago
The Ukrainians aren't some ragtag group. Literally thousands of antitank weapons have been supplied to them. The Ukrainian military, and even their air force, are still coordinated and operational. --------- This means that rifle militia aren't there to kill a tank. They are there to force the tank commander inside with small arms fire. Tanks are famously difficult to see out of. Once in there, the tank is a sitting duck to a Javelin or Panzerfaust will kill the tank reliably. This isn't 100 poorly trained militia vs tank. The situation is closer to 100 poorly trained militia + 5 professional soldiers armed with NATO top of the line antitank missiles vs tank.
tiahura 5y ago
Having grown up around guns, you should know that modern semi and fully automatic rifles are 100x more n00b friendly than an 18th century muzzle loader.

rossdavidh 5y ago

I feel obligated to point out that a major reversal in Washington's fortunes came when Lafeyette (and a few other European officers such as Steuben) trained American colonists, and they became dramatically more effective. Who knows, maybe there are equivalents of Lafeyette and Steuben among the Ukrainian people today, but if so I wouldn't know about it (or expect to).

Moru 5y ago
Ukraina has been living with the threat of war for a while now. They have had help training from both neighbour and not so neighbour countries since 2015 at least.
- helge9210 5y ago
  > Ukraina has been living with the threat of war for a while now. It was known since at least 2005
Geonode 5y ago
I'm sure there are hundreds of US and NATO "advisors" on the ground, they show up in every conflict, but are not heavily reported on.

34679 5y ago

I've seen a few videos of citizens lining up for weapons, and IMO, the troubling thing is the lack of uniforms. If Russians can't tell the difference between civilians and combatants, everyone becomes a target.

lazide 5y ago
‘Legally?’ Nope. But that is literally how every invasion ends up until the population is ‘pacified’. It’s why guerilla war works so well too. The invaders/gov’t can’t tell who is actually an adversary until it is late, and attempts to guess always kill innocent civilians which just draws more anger and hate from the local population and creates more rebels/guerillas. This is why people say ‘war is hell - because it is.
dragontamer 5y ago
Russia is already attacking hospitals and apartment buildings. The time has passed for that little problem. https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1497514747385757699 https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/149751474738575769...
ceejayoz 5y ago
https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-kyivteacher/26ukraine-briefing-kyivteacher-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-photo-4sub/merlin_202886421_578676e3-2b80-4567-a2f6-a2eeb970aaa4-superJumbo.jpg?auto=webp&quality=90 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-photos-volunteers-1sub/merlin_202895034_2d95d62c-255e-4c3d-8fc3-01592fdbb3b2-superJumbo.jpg?auto=webp&quality=90 https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-blog-rpg/26ukraine-blog-rpg-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-briefing-washington-defense/26ukraine-briefing-washington-defense-superJumbo.jpg?quality=75&auto=webp https://static01.nyt.com/images/2022/02/26/world/26ukraine-b... Yellow armbands seem to be the militia indicator.

throw0101a 5y ago

> My point is, it doesn't take much training to be safe around weapons. And yet too many people do not get any kind of training: > Student accidentally shoots self in incident at Huntsville elementary school * https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2022/02/student-shot-in-incident-at-huntsville-elementary-school.html https://www.al.com/news/huntsville/2022/02/student-shot-in-i... > Man accidentally shoots self while playing with gun along San Diego interstate * https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/north-county-news/man-accidentally-shots-self-while-playing-with-gun-along-san-diego-interstate https://www.10news.com/news/local-news/north-county-news/man... > Man accidentally shot himself in hand while cleaning his gun in Mount Pleasant * https://journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-accidentally-shot-himself-in-hand-while-cleaning-his-gun-in-mount-pleasant/article_ff817ba4-536c-5067-8895-c0d2bd5a76d6.html https://journaltimes.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/man-acc... Some folks probably shouldn't have guns because of emotional control issues: > A man was arrested early morning after shots were fired at another man during what the sheriff's department is calling a road rage dispute in Coachella. * https://amp.desertsun.com/amp/6909957001 https://amp.desertsun.com/amp/6909957001 > Father in custody after directing 4-year-old to shoot at officers in McDonald's drive-thru * https://kutv.com/news/local/suspect-in-custody-after-shooting-at-midvale-utah-mcdonalds-no-injuries https://kutv.com/news/local/suspect-in-custody-after-shootin... More: * https://twitter.com/well_regulated_ https://twitter.com/well_regulated_

helge9210 5y ago
> And yet too many people do not get any kind of training: In Ukraine every man over 40 years old received a training on basic infantry tactics and using assault rifle AK-74 and hand grenade RGD-5 during high school years.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  Presumably people in the US National Guard are also trained: > Guard soldier killed in tragic accidental shooting by roommate, fellow Guardsman * https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/02/02/guard-soldier-killed-in-tragic-accidental-shooting-by-roommate-fellow-guardsman/ https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2022/02/02/guard-so... The use of the word "accident" in the above story is also not accurate IMHO, for the same reason why "car accident" isn't: > The two groups behind the recent campaign — Transportation Alternatives and Families for Safe Streets — argue that the term "accident" makes it seem like crashes are inevitable, rather than preventable. In a subtle way, it normalizes the crash and discourages us from looking more deeply into their causes — whether alcohol, reckless driving, or bad street design. * https://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/8995151/crash-not-accident https://www.vox.com/2015/7/20/8995151/crash-not-accident Certainly the training they got during service is good, but the GP's point about not much training being needed isn't as simple as he makes it out IMHO.