7 ms·

> Ukraine didn't get into NATO, got invaded anyways. > > "We'll leave you alone if you promise never to join NATO" is the bluff, and it's been proven to be a li

by hk__2 5y ago

> Ukraine didn't get into NATO, got invaded anyways. > > "We'll leave you alone if you promise never to join NATO" is the bluff, and it's been proven to be a lie this month. It didn’t, but it intended to: "In June 2017, the Ukrainian Parliament adopted legislation reinstating membership in NATO as a strategic foreign and security policy objective. In 2019, a corresponding amendment to Ukraine’s Constitution entered into force." [1] [1]: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_37750.htm

ceejayoz 5y ago
It's hard not to see that as an obvious consequence to the Crimea annexation several years earlier. Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, has every right to desire entry into NATO. Russia, on the other hand, is in clear and direct violation of their own agreements, where Ukraine gave up nukes in exchange for permanent security guarantees against exactly what's happening now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  >It's hard not to see that as an obvious consequence to the Crimea annexation several years earlier. This is a very short range view of history. Ukraine tried to get into NATO in 2008, but was put on the back burner. Anti-NATO government came to power in 2010, and overthrown in 2014 by Pro-NATO Poroshenko, directly leading to the annexation. Since then Ukraine has steadily drawn closer to joining NATO up until the current situation.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    Setting aside for a moment the idea that "we should join NATO" in 2017 is unrelated to "Russia took part of our country" in 2014... Ukraine has every right to do that. They're a sovereign nation, not a Russian province. Russia has no more standing to demand they stay out of NATO than they have the right to dictate the speed limit in Kiyv.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      >Ukraine has every right to do that. They're a sovereign nation, not a Russian province. Sure, I totally agree. They are free to make their own decisions. NATO countries are also free to make their own decisions, and I wish that they would close the NATO door to Ukraine. I have no interest in the US and NATO being the world police.
    - psyc 5y ago
      The following shall not be construed as defending Putin’s point of view, so don’t even. Suppose my neighbor is a thug. A gang member. And he doesn’t like me. I have every right to date his little sister. We’re all free adults. My intentions are constitutional! What could go wrong? If he threatens me, I’ll just tell the police, because he has no right. What could go wrong? There’s the way you wish things were, and the way things are. I understand the desire to make things how they ought to be. But in the meantime, there is sometimes a gulf between theory and practice.

by hk__2 5y ago

ceejayoz 5y ago

It's hard not to see that as an obvious consequence to the Crimea annexation several years earlier. Ukraine, as a sovereign nation, has every right to desire entry into NATO. Russia, on the other hand, is in clear and direct violation of their own agreements, where Ukraine gave up nukes in exchange for permanent security guarantees against exactly what's happening now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

s1artibartfast 5y ago
>It's hard not to see that as an obvious consequence to the Crimea annexation several years earlier. This is a very short range view of history. Ukraine tried to get into NATO in 2008, but was put on the back burner. Anti-NATO government came to power in 2010, and overthrown in 2014 by Pro-NATO Poroshenko, directly leading to the annexation. Since then Ukraine has steadily drawn closer to joining NATO up until the current situation.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  Setting aside for a moment the idea that "we should join NATO" in 2017 is unrelated to "Russia took part of our country" in 2014... Ukraine has every right to do that. They're a sovereign nation, not a Russian province. Russia has no more standing to demand they stay out of NATO than they have the right to dictate the speed limit in Kiyv.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    >Ukraine has every right to do that. They're a sovereign nation, not a Russian province. Sure, I totally agree. They are free to make their own decisions. NATO countries are also free to make their own decisions, and I wish that they would close the NATO door to Ukraine. I have no interest in the US and NATO being the world police.
  - psyc 5y ago
    The following shall not be construed as defending Putin’s point of view, so don’t even. Suppose my neighbor is a thug. A gang member. And he doesn’t like me. I have every right to date his little sister. We’re all free adults. My intentions are constitutional! What could go wrong? If he threatens me, I’ll just tell the police, because he has no right. What could go wrong? There’s the way you wish things were, and the way things are. I understand the desire to make things how they ought to be. But in the meantime, there is sometimes a gulf between theory and practice.