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Advice to civilian resistors in Ukriane, especially Kyiv
- throwawayay02 5y agoI think the best advice would be to surrender and avoid pointless loss of life. You only have one life, is it really worth throwing away so your elite rules instead of your neighbors' elite?
- mhh__ 5y agoHistory would be boring if everyone chose a comfortable life
- slashdev 5y agoI choose boring happily over being dead. I don't think I would be willing to give my life to defend a country unless against a terrible evil like the Nazis.
- AniseAbyss 5y agoLife in Russia is hardly comfortable. The options are Live out your life in a corrupt dictatorship with bad economy Flee Fight for a brighter future
- klyrs 5y agoMy grandpa was held in a concentration camp in Poland (red triangle). He escaped, got picked up by British intelligence, went back in, and helped more prisoners escape on his way back out. His last words to me were "give 'em hell." But you do you, I guess.
- ghusto 5y agoSo because your grandfather chose to fight Nazis, everyone who doesn't want to fight in any war is a coward and is to be mocked? Look, good for grandfather, you should be proud, but don't piss in people making rational decisions in a completely different situation.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ceejayoz 5y agoI think the point is more "the world needs people who'll stand up to this sort of thing".
- egfx 5y agoThat’s right. I was born In Odessa a city in a country I proudly visited more then 15 years ago to see the apartment block where I was born. Today the picture of the steps that’s been the poster of my Facebook profile for a decade is guarded by a Ukrainian tank. I’m happy to see that modern day freedom fighter Ukrainians are standing up for democratic principals and what I was bright to this country to escape from. It’s a difficult situation. I admire they’re courage.
- BeetleB 5y agoTwo problems: False dichotomy. Putting words in the other's mouth.
- ghusto 5y agoYes that's pretty much what I was getting at.
- polotics 5y agoHahaha elite Russians like Putin and friends will be so glad to extract all the life of slavery you so gladly gave them if you prepare to surrender. Pro-tip: newspaper rolled up in your pants to protect your knees and legs. Having to get down in a big rush with no kneepads gets old and bloody very quickly.
- adrian_b 5y agoThere are cases when you might be right, but your advice does not apply to Russian invasions. The millions of people who have lived in the countries from Eastern Europe, all of which have been invaded by the Russians at the end of WWII, have learned that being ruled by the Russian government, either directly or indirectly through their servants that are installed as supposedly independent local governments is far worse than being ruled by any other elite. Not only the Russian elites have always been greedier than other elites, but they were not content to steal your assets, they also forced you to say all the time that you are happy about it, which was even more annoying than being dispossessed.
- PeterisP 5y ago> is it really worth throwing away so your elite rules instead of your neighbors' elite? When the difference is between your elected government and an invading regime that's well known for being violently oppressive even against their own people - yes. Also, the Ukrainian people can easily see the how life goes for people who stayed in DNR/LNR. You either fight totalitarianism or flee it; accepting it is a really lousy option.
- ziml77 5y agoPeople thought they would be spared if they surrendered to the Nazis. That sure turned out well for them huh? There are many situations in life where it's not worth fighting. Fending off foreign aggression is not one of those times. If they're invading, they have absolutely no care for your safety and they have no higher authority to fear for anything they do to you.
- DoItToMe81 5y agoGenocide was an inherent part of Nazi ideology, though, and the NSDAP had openly declared its contempt for many of the people it conquered. There hasn't been anything comparable to Hitler or Nazism in any of Russia's wars.
- adrian_b 5y agoYou are completely delusional. The Russians have murdered much more people in the Eastern European countries that they have occupied than the Nazis ever have. If the Nazis had not been defeated relatively quickly they might have killed much more, but as it happened, the victorious Russians had much more years available to kill everybody who was believed as able to oppose them. Totaled over all the Eastern Europe and the various minorities of Soviet Union, many millions of people, mostly those being the formerly well-educated professionals of the occupied countries, have been either killed immediately or imprisoned, and most have died during detention. The only difference between the Nazis and the Russians has been that the Russians were more careful to hide many of their actions and as former allies of USA, unlike the Nazis, they have not been the subjects of so many movies or novels describing their crimes during WWII and during the first decades after WWII.
- DoItToMe81 5y ago"You are completely delusional." claims man unaware of the collapse of the USSR. Point me towards the genocides in Syria and Georgia, I'll wait.
- 5y ago
- j4yav 5y agoWouldn’t a policy of surrendering at the first chance essentially turn you into a slave of anyone willing to use force against you?
- kbelder 5y agoI think this sort of behavior could only be advocated by somebody who doesn't understand actual tyranny; if you think that you're a slave to the 'elite of the modern West', than you have no perspective what being a slave is really like. Nor why anybody would fight against it.
- throwawayboise 5y agoYes you only have one life, and you will arrive at the end of it and all you can do with your final thoughts is think about what the point of it all was. Did you simply exist, or did you make some small difference? Everyone has his own priorities and point of view but I think the only way a life is "thrown away" is if a person does nothing at all with it.
- foxfluff 5y ago> I think the best advice would be to surrender and avoid pointless loss of life. Everyone gets to decide how much they value the independence of their country for themselves. If Ukrainian choose to fight, so be it.
- webmobdev 5y agoMaybe not the "best", but good advise nonetheless - sometimes if you have no way out, it's just preferable to stay and fight. Most times, it is better to run because war is ugly and you best leave it to those trained in it. Safeguarding your family should be your top priority, and for a civilian a political fight later is always the better option.
- tut-urut-utut 5y ago
- ceejayoz 5y agohttps://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/375-590007?OpenDocument https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/WebART/375-590007?OpenDoc... (2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following conditions: (a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates; (b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance; (c) that of carrying arms openly; (d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war. They probably need an "I'm a militia" armband or something, but it's not inconcievable they're protected under the Conventions.
- throw_a_grenade 5y agoNope, they don't even need the armband: (6) Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war.
- ceejayoz 5y agoAh, neat. They thought of that too. Should've scrolled further, my thanks for pointing it out.
- kergonath 5y agoAll that is fine and dandy. The thing is, though, that somehow I doubt Russia really feels bound by things like rules conventions.
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- thriftwy 5y agoAs a reaction to floods in Indonesia, the USA has sent several helicopters as aid, the Germany several motor boats, and the USSR a truckload of "Swimming 101" textbooks.
- skinnymuch 5y agoOh wow the west helps those poor [non white] places so much! I heard we send aircrafts to Yemen too.
- unethical_ban 5y agoI would be shocked if there isn't a site or PDF that already has this kind of information. Nevertheless, this is good information to have.
- RcouF1uZ4gsC 5y agoTo paraphrase Charles de Gaulle, Western Europe and the US will fight to the last drop of Ukrainian blood (while making sure not to increase their citizens’ gas prices by embargoing Russian gas exports).
- unethical_ban 5y agoThe US seems capable of weathering large sanctions against Russia. Can Europe? Will the people of Europe stand up and be "economic soldiers" by taking one on the chin with gas prices or cold winter, in order to fight the Russians?
- enaaem 5y agoI’m from Europe and I’m willing.
- AniseAbyss 5y agoAs am I. We have to draw the line somewhere, if not Ukraine today it will be Moldova tomorrow and who knows who next week?
- kkfx 5y agoI suggest few things: - aggression of foreign countries regularly happen, did you remember Iraq with the lie of mass destruction/chemical/biological weapons? Afghanistan with the lie that it protect Osama Bin laden? Libya and Syria in a more "European" way (witch means a bit less publicly announced, with more discretion and low information). Ukraine is just the last one in a long row; - in all west, and almost all the world, protests against neo-liberal govs have spread to a point that many fear (counter)putsch by angry crowds, now they are almost silenced; - EU, after decades of push and pull, was about to consider Russian Fed. a partner, now they are back under the NATO umbrella witch actually is more harmful than useful for us Europeans... - China is the actual winner: with Russia blocked by the wast China is it's sole strong partner option, and for China that means the ability to access far more natural resources from Russia and also far more hi tech military gear and skill, perhaps to a point of being able to technologically surpass USA, a thing so far impossible; - with the war, hyperinflation, energy issues etc became "because of the war" instead of "to push the Green New Deal". Long story short: most government of the world need a war, most people of the world need peace. But as always most people are unable to see their own enemy, not the other peer with a different uniform on the opposite side of the front but the one well at their own army head. This very post is part of that propaganda: asking people to fight an in-winnable, and already obviously lost war, is asking to damage themselves for the sake of the west. Much like what happen in WWII in UE, where "the allied" decide to destroy anything, their own soldiers life included, to face devastated countries far easier to be politically conquered thereafter. If Ukrainian do want the good for their own country since it's evident that the war is lost they should not fight but instead welcome the winner and do their best to became part of it's establishment, doing so let them protect their country in the immediate from war destruction, in the short terms in sovereignty terms (anyone can oppress, but you can oppress more a devastated and defeated enemy than one that's welcome you), and in mean/long term sabotaging the invader from the inside. Did you see colorful revolution? The so called "Arab springs"? Di you try too see the cui prodest (who benefit from them)? Well, now the plot is essentially the very same and the fact that the blackbird is actually black does not means that the crow is of another color. The very first thing to do to win a war is understand what's your enemy. The enemy actually is at our head as of the one at Russian head. It have a name: neoliberalism. The same people that try a nazi putsch in the USA in the '30s (JP Morgan -led), the same one that help original nazi even when the WWII was already started (from IBM to Standard Oil), the same mind behind "Operation Unthinkable" and "Operation Dropshot". The same who kill millions of Americans and British soldiers for their own profit.
- DoItToMe81 5y ago"Blur the lines between civilian and combatant so that we have a nice package of human suffering to justify future foreign interention" - no thanks.
- hluska 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- efficientsticks 5y agoThere is no question the Ukranian people would fight a resistance already, the colonel is just trying to get them not be killed early and achieve the desired outcome.
- IYasha 5y agoWe've got, like, 99% of media talking about this, could we please avoid it on technical resource? As much as I love reading opinions of tech people, I'd still rather not see these kind of disputes here. Sorry if I offended anyone.
- version_five 5y agoI cancelled my subscription to The Economist after it basically turned into the Covid news in 2020 and was offering little value over what I could get anywhere. I agree with you that if this goes on, HN needs to stop talking about it, or at least scale back to rare instances where something materially new happens. I think there's some room in the first couple days for these stories to dominate though, it's kn everybody's mind and it's tough to just shut it out entirely
- DyslexicAtheist 5y agothere are so many links to chose from on HN, I don't know how people can be so petty and lament on what others engage with. If the frontpage doesn't have enough there is the new posts section that have some interesting things that usually stays hidden. it might not get the same volume of discussion but it's still better than complaining that others aren't being absorbed by identical content at all times.
- skinnymuch 5y agoIf one is here for the comments, your suggestion doesn’t help
- DyslexicAtheist 5y agosubmit articles that you feel should be discussed? or upvote new submissions to help them get the weight to hit FP?
- skinnymuch 5y ago
- dynamic_sausage 5y agoNot sure what this guy's credentials are, but here he tries to give advice to the people who have i) overthrown a corrupt government with little but baseball bats, tires, and home-made molotovs ii) stopped and maybe even reversed the progress of what has been hailed as the "2nd army in the world". Dunno, wish I had his self-confidence.
- chrisseaton 5y ago> Not sure what this guy's credentials are He's literally both a colonel and a professor of urban warfare.
- hotpotamus 5y agoProfessor of urban warfare? His PhD defense must have been more literal than most.
- chrisseaton 5y agoPhD is a degree, professor is a title, two different things.
- oh_sigh 5y agoFrom his twitter bio: Chair of Urban Warfare Studies, Modern War Institute(@warinstitute)| Colonel (CA) | @MilWritersGuild | Author, Connected Soldiers
- deutschewelle 5y agoTwitter does a great job of elevating expertise signaling individuals, especially with long threads where mentions of "past experiences" and other name dropping dramatically boosts one's exposure.
- matthewmacleod 5y agoAre you complaining here that experts on particular subjects are talking about their areas of expertise publicly?
- webmobdev 5y agoI am quite confused at the naivety of some of the US / EU social media posters here and elsewhere - it seems like many buy into the propaganda that an experienced military power like Russia doesn't know how to fight a war? That too against a weaker military and an untrained civilian army? One should really ponder what the end goal of such misinformation is ... Indian generals are already commenting on how the Russian strategy on Ukraine seems to be to precisely avoid urban warfare - "Psychological warfare, avoiding casualties: Why Russians aren’t storming Ukraine’s cities" - https://theprint.in/defence/psychological-warfare-avoiding-casualties-why-russians-arent-storming-ukraines-cities/849097/ https://theprint.in/defence/psychological-warfare-avoiding-c... If the internet comments romanticising the current conflict and encouraging civilian to pick up arms and become "freedom fighters" are anything to go by, our generation seems to be the least prepared for war of any kind ...
- geraldyo 5y agoHave you not seen any examples in history of "civilian freedom fighters" (there's an Arabic word for that, I think.........) getting a lot over an "experienced military"?
- Connor_Creegan 5y agoVictory of civilian militias, guerilla groups, etc. against imperial powers is usually because occupation of the former's territory is a sunk cost for the latter. America, Haiti, Cuba, Vietnam, etc. are not really comparable to this present conflict, in which the imperial power is adjacent both in terms of land and history.
- webmobdev 5y agoExactly. Many are missing the point that Russia is not trying to annexe Ukraine, but have 2 goals - ideally do a regime change that favours Russia's security concerns or destabilise the country and make it such a shit hole that even the west avoids it. The west on the other hand want to prolong this conflict because it knows that the longer the people are in a state of warfare, the more the people will turn against the Russian invaders (provided ofcourse, their local support and propaganda weakens).
- bArray 5y agoThis is clearly advice for civilian people who intend to fight in any case. There is obviously a threat to life here, so each person is empowered to make decisions based on this knowledge. I would add to defensive strategy: 1. Communications - Ideally a radio, or visual (i.e. hand signals). This way you can ask for help, supplies, or warn people of an oncoming threat. The better your communication, the better you can coordinate your efforts. 2. Choke points - Not just for vehicles, but also for personnel. Ideally you would have some advantage over the choke points, such as height. You are unlikely to have a long-distance advantage over a trained soldier. 3. Disable infrastructure - As the thread suggests, bridges, roads, trains, paths - anything you find useful, your enemy also finds useful. 4. Identification - Ideally you need to be able to quickly identify one another, and potentially somebody who is not one of you. For offence strategy: 1. Petrol + <censored> (search engine) - It is possible to make a highly flammable substance that sticks to anything it touches. This is highly effective against personnel. 2. Burning barricade - For pathways or alleyways that cannot be easily blocked off, start a large tire fire. This location will essentially be unpassable until the fire is extinguished. Tire and oil fires are notoriously difficult to put out. 3. Sabotage - Sabotage resources the enemy may want or need (but make sure your allies are aware of this). Food/water can be poisoned, fuel can be contaminated. 4. Weapons - Don't waste time aiming too much. Fire in the location of the enemy and move location. A single shot, then move to a random location. The goal is to make them take cover and remain in cover. If you can, coordinate it such that as one person/groups moves, the others provide covering fire. You will need a lot of ammunition, even if you are highly conserving it. Tactics to be aware of: 1. Flanking - If you are successfully holding an enemy in a location, they or other support are likely trying to flank your position. Know all entry points to your location in advance and have exit routes planned. 2. Large weapons - If you have an enemy held in a location and they are not able to flank you, the other option is using a large weapon. This could be a tank, launcher, air support, shelling, etc. Ideally you retreat before this happens. General points: 1. Food/water - You will not operate for long without these. At least 2 litres of water a day and at least 2000 kcal a day. Ideally 4 litres of water and 4000 kcal. 2. Sanitation - You need to maintain basic hygiene. Disease will make you ineffective incredibly quickly. Shit when you need to, a common mistake is to wait for days for a toilet to be available. 3. Medical supplies - Ideally you have some medical supplies on hand. Most likely injury is to be shot or hit with shrapnel, most penetration wounds will not kill you. Blood loss is your greatest immediate concern to deal with. 4. Morale - Make sure people are paired up at least - long periods of solitude are awful for mental well-being. Be prepared for nothing to happen for a long time, then lots to happen all of a sudden. Maintain alertness and always assume the enemy is watching. Best of luck to you all.
- jansen555 5y agoThis basically asking Ukrainian to die with protracted war. This book has been written without consideration of Russia tactics. It is predominantly to cater American invasions. I suggest reading up what happen in Grozny. Invasion of Eastern Germany back in WW2 by red army is also a good indicator how Putin can do. Currently a newer tactic is to killed the people in leadership roles which was used effectively by Soviet in Stalingrad vs Nazi Germany. USA did use it in Iraq with their poker cards. Currently, Putin is rumored to do so with 10K Chechen fighters. Unlike American of trying to preserve the leadership and going for surrender, Russia historically is to switch leadership. Hence, decapitating Zelensky would be the most likely outcome in coming weeks.