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Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be ni

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

louwrentius 5y ago
There isn't any difference.
- qzx_pierri 5y ago
  I don't think crypto is a ponzi scheme, but I DO think storing your crypto on third party servers is dangerous. Although whenever I hear claims of "guaranteed returns" or "proprietary investment technologies" I do think it may be a ponzi scheme lol
- TheFreim 5y ago
  I'm very sympathetic with many of the "anti"-crypto arguments but to say there is no difference between BitConnect and Bitcoin/Ethereum is just wrong. You might believe their value is based on a similar concept, pyramid scheme type construct, but they still have massive differences. Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/ (even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that that something is bad).
  - JackFr 5y ago
    > Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/ Big if true.
    - nest0r 5y ago
    - TheFreim 5y ago
      You might think that the "something" "legit" crypto does isn't a good solution even though it IS doing "something". Bitcoin works as a distributed ledger, depending on your view that might be a solution in search if a problem but it's still something.
      - danaris 5y ago
        "Working as a distribute ledger" is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's a tool. What is that tool useful for that isn't better served by other tools? That is the question that has never been answered, at least not to my satisfaction.
  - astoor 5y ago
    Plausible deniability is one of ways the cryptocurrency schemes have continued for so long without collapsing - members can convince themselves that Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc. aren't ponzi/pyramid schemes because they "do something". Furthermore, that "something" can keep changing over time (e.g. for Ethereum it was first ICOs and DApps, currently it is NFTs and DeFi, and in future likely to be something else), which keeps the schemes self-sustaining. It is the plausible deniability and evolving self-sustainability which are the main advantages Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc. have over simpler schemes like BitConnect.
    - TheFreim 5y ago
      > Furthermore, that "something" can keep changing over time I don't follow. DApps didn't change to nfts, did they? I'm pretty sure they still are used and developed.
      - astoor 5y ago
        No, DApps didn't change into NFTs, and yes, DApps and ICOs still exist. But DApps and ICOs are not the current "revolutionary" "game changing" drivers for "line goes up" in the Ethereum world. Similarly I'd expect NFTs and DeFi to continue to exist after whatever supersedes them as the main attraction to draw in new members. Just like there are still people who talk about Bitcoin as "electronic cash" even though most have moved on to other narratives like "digital gold". That is the evolving self-sustainability aspect of plausible deniability. The schemes are flexible enough for existing scheme members to claim they are whatever they need to be to continue drawing in those all-important new scheme members, although most likely only for a finite period of time.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
beaconstudios 5y ago
Show me one cryptocurrency that has driven real world industry more than financial speculation and scamming.
- deadalus 5y ago
  Monero because its untraceable(real world industry - underground drug markets) IRS wants to crack it and awarded $1.25 million contract: https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-win-million-dollar-irs-contract-to-crack-monero https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-wi...
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    Do you need to crack it if the government can be a majority hashrate of the miner pool? One need not crack it to control it. You'd be able to double spend, mine empty blocks, orphan blocks from other miners, etc. Just need to get to and sustain 51% of the hash pool, which sounds trivial considering nation state compute resources.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    This doesn't really shift my priors that the only practical use of crypto is illegal transactions.
    - politician 5y ago
      El Salvador legalized Bitcoin for use in fee-free cross-border remittances.
z3c0 5y ago
It will take time. Upsetting technologies attract conartists like flies to honey. Critics will deliberately conflate the cons with the rest until then, as it's a very convenient argument (though obviously fallacious.)
- spicyusername 5y ago
  > It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. > - Upton Sinclair
  - sbarre 5y ago
    Is this a pro or con comment? Could be both I suppose.
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      Pro-cryptocurrency comments are usually cons. And unfortunately nobody's salary depends on preventing other people from shilling get-rich-quick pyramid schemes. (Except maybe for dang's.)
    - dennis_jeeves1 5y ago
      It's a relatively objective assessment of the topic, and human nature in general.
- TheFreim 5y ago
  Alternatively, con-artists pose as upsetting technologies to convince people to get in on the "ground floor" of the exciting hyped tech (doesn't necessarily apply to crypto).
logicalmonster 5y ago
The really fascinating bit isn't that they're currently programmed to think that crypto is doubleplusungood, it's the 180 narrative flip they'll do the second that their chosen media entities tells them to view crypto as doubleplusgood. You're going to see hordes of former crypto detractors rewrite history in their minds and come out with a new viewpoint without an inkling of self-awareness.
- civilized 5y ago
  I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone who spouts nonsense - when it turns out you're wrong, will you care? Or is possessing this worldview somehow intrinsically satisfying to you, regardless of reality?
  - logicalmonster 5y ago
    1) What exactly would I be wrong about? A good test for cognitive dissonance is comparing your predictions to reality, and I do not believe that I ever stated that BitCoin is inevitably going to become the most important currency in the world. I think crypto is great conceptually (which will never be not true) and that it may or may not succeed in the marketplace. Bitcoin itself may not succeed long-term even if crypto does. I acknowledge all of those things. 2) If crypto "fails", I'd say that the reason for the failure is important in making an assessment. If it fails because the technology is too slow long-term or not enough people choose not to use it for a very long-time, that's one thing that would be harder to argue against. If crypto fails because it's effectively legislated out of existence, that would be hard to see that as anything but a vindication of the concept. 3) For what it's worth, while I consider myself to be a fairly rational person, nobody is absolutely immune to cognitive dissonance. You should constantly check your premises and examine your past predictions. That's part of why I support the absolute right to free speech and debate ideas and play devil's advocate a lot. 4) I stand firm on one prediction. If some government out there decides to use some crypto for their central bank, they're going to have their media pump out support for it, and many former crypto opponents will be reprogrammed on the fly and take on a pro-crypto viewpoint without skipping a beat if they're told to.
capableweb 5y ago
Let's assume for the faith of your argument that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Who is at the top that gains from all of this? And how are you gonna indict "them" when seemingly no one knows who they are?
- TheFreim 5y ago
  > Who is at the top that gains from all of this? In a ponzi scheme the people higher in the pyramid are anyone who joined in the past and is trying to grow it. You could say Satoshi with his early mining and various other "insiders", whether their identity is known or not, are at the top. I don't necessarily agree that it's a ponzi scheme, although I'm sympathetic with many anti-crypto arguments, but that's the reasoning if expect they'd use.
  - chiefalchemist 5y ago
    Ponzi scheme? Perhaps not. So maybe we need a new word? It's a new invention, and thus might require a new lexicon to capture its essence.
    - cygx 5y ago
      Here are some terms that already exists: 'economic bubble', 'pump and dump', 'greater fool theory', ...
      - Ekaros 5y ago
        'Mania' etc. There is nothing special about crypto apart it being digital and new... Art, collectibles, real estate... Many things have been overvalued with basis that prices have always gone up and being paid by those acquiring them later...
    - jtbayly 5y ago
      Sounds like a fiat currency in many respects. Which is funny since that’s what it was supposed to not be.
NeutralForest 5y ago
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Even without the Ponzi scheme and market manipulation; Proof-of-Work based cryptocurrencies are an ecological catastrophe. Other Proof-of-Something™ currencies do not bring much to the table either. At some point it's only normal there's a push back against cryptocurrencies.
- samarama 5y ago
  That’s why the vast majority of L1s are not proof of work.
  - NeutralForest 5y ago
    Yet Bitcoin is still considered the OG token and a "true" cryptocurrency as mentioned above and not old dangerous tech. Also in the last 10 years, only a handful of tokens have had a somewhat usable blockchain which grinds to a halt anytime people share pictures of cats or monkeys and we're told to wait for another year or two for an update to whatever protocol is trendy at the moment. Rinse and repeat every year. Also also, every other year a cryptocurrency comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems with don't have. So no, not interested.
    - everfree 5y ago
      > Yet Bitcoin is still considered the OG token and a "true" cryptocurrency as mentioned above and not old dangerous tech. The solution to that is to educate people on how Bitcoin is old dangerous tech, not to throw out all other blockchains along with Bitcoin. > a somewhat usable blockchain which grinds to a halt anytime people share pictures of cats or monkeys These chains don't "grind to a halt" in any sense of that phrase, they dynamically price a scarce resource (block space). The chain runs at 100% capacity during these spikes in demand. > we're told to wait for another year or two for an update to whatever protocol is trendy at the moment. Rinse and repeat every year. Every few years, cryptocurrencies upgrade their capacity using new technology, and every few years, enough new people start using them to saturate the new, higher capacity. There's nothing contradictory about that. > Also also, every other year a cryptocurrency comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems with don't have. Every other year a traditional tech company also comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems we don't have. But we don't judge Apple based on the failure of Juicero. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law > So no, not interested. You have a right to not be interested, but you're choosing to share your take, and your take is incorrect.
DonHopkins 5y ago
The fact that cryptocurrencies are even Ponzier than any Ponzi scheme, more pyramidal than any pyramid scheme, much getter, richer, and quicker than any get-rich-quick scheme, and more shaggily carpeted and vigorously jerked than any rug-pull scheme, doesn't mean they're not scams. Edit: when shills gets called on purposefully missing the point by arguing over semantics, they switch to outright denial and making stuff up. Actually, ethereum and bitcoin ARE both scams, in fact the biggest ones of them all. And that IS the point.
- cinntaile 5y ago
  There are definitely cryptocurrencies out there that are scams, but big ones like ethereum and bitcoin for example are not. This is besides the point though.
  - mdoms 5y ago
    Bitcoin and Ethereum are scams.
    - everfree 5y ago
      Why?
      - DonHopkins 5y ago
        Haven't you watched "Line Goes Up - The Problem With NFTs" yet? It's about a whole lot more than just NFTs. Your question is thoroughly addressed and truthfully answered in that video. Also see his references and citations in "Sources and Further Reading" for more proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g Sources and Further Reading: https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://tante.cc/2021/12/17/the-third-web/ https://tante.cc/2021/12/17/the-third-web/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/03/11/nfts-crypto-grifters-try-to-scam-artists-again/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/03/11/nfts-crypto-... https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beeple-art-buyer-and-his-nft-defi-scheme/ https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beepl... https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html https://blog.mollywhite.net/blockchains-are-not-what-they-say/ https://blog.mollywhite.net/blockchains-are-not-what-they-sa... https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/1478017698676228099?s=20 https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/1478017698676228099?s=20 https://davidgolumbia.medium.com/cryptocurrency-is-garbage-so-is-blockchain-3e80078e77fe https://davidgolumbia.medium.com/cryptocurrency-is-garbage-s... https://marker.medium.com/fintech-is-a-scam-a-listicle-in-eight-parts-7b6161f3a35a https://marker.medium.com/fintech-is-a-scam-a-listicle-in-ei... https://naavik.co/business-breakdowns/axie-infinity/#axie-decon= https://naavik.co/business-breakdowns/axie-infinity/#axie-de... https://www.gawker.com/culture/the-future-is-useless-expensive https://www.gawker.com/culture/the-future-is-useless-expensi... https://twitter.com/NFTtheft https://twitter.com/NFTtheft https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/nfts-werent-supposed-end-like/618488/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/nfts-weren... https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-11-05-baseless-nft-hype-hits-a-crescendo-but-its-play-to-earn-thats-worth-watching-opinion https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-11-05-baseless-n... https://www.technollama.co.uk/platform-is-law-the-cautionary-tale-of-stolen-nfts https://www.technollama.co.uk/platform-is-law-the-cautionary... https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/02/12/libra-shrugged-chapter-6-banking-the-unbanked/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/02/12/libra-shrugg... https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed
gjvc 5y ago
The common characteristic is that "early adopters" get disproportionately large returns compared to later adopters. Indeed those later adopters are financing the exit of the participants who "got in first". In this way it's like a Ponzi scheme, but the same could be said for stocks. You might call the above a simplification; that is fine -- my point is that this is a (inaccurate) linguistic shorthand -- calling something by the name of something else which shares a characteristic, but it is inaccurate (a Ponzi scheme has a central organizer / hub), and bitcoin does not.
- Hallucinaut 5y ago
  It's grossly untrue to say it's a Ponzi scheme "like stocks" which are part ownership in companies that actually sell things in the real world and are valued by the present value of their future expected cash flows, rather than cryptocurrencies which have no such relationship to the real world, and some would argue are valued entirely on the premise of returns that can only be sustained by finding the next sucker.
  - gjvc 5y ago
    I think we are in violent agreement. Two things can share a characteristic and yet be completely different, but people focus on the similarity (which is easily understood and explainable) and ignore the differences (which can be more difficult to understand and explain).
  - datadata 5y ago
    There are stocks which are fraudulent, e.g Theranos, Enron, or ZZZZ Best. The fact that a company might have expected cash flows does not make them impervious to defrauding investors. Similarly, something issued without any claims of future cash flows does not imply that it must be a fraud.
  - everfree 5y ago
    Some stocks have no expected cash flows, some cryptocurrencies have expected cash flows. You can't generalize entire asset classes like that.
mdoms 5y ago
They're all Ponzi schemes. Every last one of them.
Ekaros 5y ago
I keep being annoyed that people keep throwing ponzi at things that really aren't that. Words has meaning and Ponzi describe certain kind of scheme. Not a scam in general...

Nice job. Now if only some people would see the difference between an actual ponzi scheme like this one and bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. That would be nice.

louwrentius 5y ago

There isn't any difference.

qzx_pierri 5y ago
I don't think crypto is a ponzi scheme, but I DO think storing your crypto on third party servers is dangerous. Although whenever I hear claims of "guaranteed returns" or "proprietary investment technologies" I do think it may be a ponzi scheme lol
TheFreim 5y ago
I'm very sympathetic with many of the "anti"-crypto arguments but to say there is no difference between BitConnect and Bitcoin/Ethereum is just wrong. You might believe their value is based on a similar concept, pyramid scheme type construct, but they still have massive differences. Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/ (even if you ultimately come to the conclusion that that something is bad).
- JackFr 5y ago
  > Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc actually do /something/ Big if true.
  - nest0r 5y ago
  - TheFreim 5y ago
    You might think that the "something" "legit" crypto does isn't a good solution even though it IS doing "something". Bitcoin works as a distributed ledger, depending on your view that might be a solution in search if a problem but it's still something.
    - danaris 5y ago
      "Working as a distribute ledger" is a means to an end, not an end in itself. It's a tool. What is that tool useful for that isn't better served by other tools? That is the question that has never been answered, at least not to my satisfaction.
- astoor 5y ago
  Plausible deniability is one of ways the cryptocurrency schemes have continued for so long without collapsing - members can convince themselves that Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc. aren't ponzi/pyramid schemes because they "do something". Furthermore, that "something" can keep changing over time (e.g. for Ethereum it was first ICOs and DApps, currently it is NFTs and DeFi, and in future likely to be something else), which keeps the schemes self-sustaining. It is the plausible deniability and evolving self-sustainability which are the main advantages Bitcoin/Ethereum/etc. have over simpler schemes like BitConnect.
  - TheFreim 5y ago
    > Furthermore, that "something" can keep changing over time I don't follow. DApps didn't change to nfts, did they? I'm pretty sure they still are used and developed.
    - astoor 5y ago
      No, DApps didn't change into NFTs, and yes, DApps and ICOs still exist. But DApps and ICOs are not the current "revolutionary" "game changing" drivers for "line goes up" in the Ethereum world. Similarly I'd expect NFTs and DeFi to continue to exist after whatever supersedes them as the main attraction to draw in new members. Just like there are still people who talk about Bitcoin as "electronic cash" even though most have moved on to other narratives like "digital gold". That is the evolving self-sustainability aspect of plausible deniability. The schemes are flexible enough for existing scheme members to claim they are whatever they need to be to continue drawing in those all-important new scheme members, although most likely only for a finite period of time.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

beaconstudios 5y ago

Show me one cryptocurrency that has driven real world industry more than financial speculation and scamming.

deadalus 5y ago
Monero because its untraceable(real world industry - underground drug markets) IRS wants to crack it and awarded $1.25 million contract: https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-win-million-dollar-irs-contract-to-crack-monero https://cointelegraph.com/news/chainalysis-and-texas-firm-wi...
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  Do you need to crack it if the government can be a majority hashrate of the miner pool? One need not crack it to control it. You'd be able to double spend, mine empty blocks, orphan blocks from other miners, etc. Just need to get to and sustain 51% of the hash pool, which sounds trivial considering nation state compute resources.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  This doesn't really shift my priors that the only practical use of crypto is illegal transactions.
  - politician 5y ago
    El Salvador legalized Bitcoin for use in fee-free cross-border remittances.

z3c0 5y ago

It will take time. Upsetting technologies attract conartists like flies to honey. Critics will deliberately conflate the cons with the rest until then, as it's a very convenient argument (though obviously fallacious.)

spicyusername 5y ago
> It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it. > - Upton Sinclair
- sbarre 5y ago
  Is this a pro or con comment? Could be both I suppose.
  - DonHopkins 5y ago
    Pro-cryptocurrency comments are usually cons. And unfortunately nobody's salary depends on preventing other people from shilling get-rich-quick pyramid schemes. (Except maybe for dang's.)
  - dennis_jeeves1 5y ago
    It's a relatively objective assessment of the topic, and human nature in general.
TheFreim 5y ago
Alternatively, con-artists pose as upsetting technologies to convince people to get in on the "ground floor" of the exciting hyped tech (doesn't necessarily apply to crypto).

logicalmonster 5y ago

The really fascinating bit isn't that they're currently programmed to think that crypto is doubleplusungood, it's the 180 narrative flip they'll do the second that their chosen media entities tells them to view crypto as doubleplusgood. You're going to see hordes of former crypto detractors rewrite history in their minds and come out with a new viewpoint without an inkling of self-awareness.

civilized 5y ago
I'll ask you the same question I ask everyone who spouts nonsense - when it turns out you're wrong, will you care? Or is possessing this worldview somehow intrinsically satisfying to you, regardless of reality?
- logicalmonster 5y ago
  1) What exactly would I be wrong about? A good test for cognitive dissonance is comparing your predictions to reality, and I do not believe that I ever stated that BitCoin is inevitably going to become the most important currency in the world. I think crypto is great conceptually (which will never be not true) and that it may or may not succeed in the marketplace. Bitcoin itself may not succeed long-term even if crypto does. I acknowledge all of those things. 2) If crypto "fails", I'd say that the reason for the failure is important in making an assessment. If it fails because the technology is too slow long-term or not enough people choose not to use it for a very long-time, that's one thing that would be harder to argue against. If crypto fails because it's effectively legislated out of existence, that would be hard to see that as anything but a vindication of the concept. 3) For what it's worth, while I consider myself to be a fairly rational person, nobody is absolutely immune to cognitive dissonance. You should constantly check your premises and examine your past predictions. That's part of why I support the absolute right to free speech and debate ideas and play devil's advocate a lot. 4) I stand firm on one prediction. If some government out there decides to use some crypto for their central bank, they're going to have their media pump out support for it, and many former crypto opponents will be reprogrammed on the fly and take on a pro-crypto viewpoint without skipping a beat if they're told to.

capableweb 5y ago

Let's assume for the faith of your argument that Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme. Who is at the top that gains from all of this? And how are you gonna indict "them" when seemingly no one knows who they are?

TheFreim 5y ago
> Who is at the top that gains from all of this? In a ponzi scheme the people higher in the pyramid are anyone who joined in the past and is trying to grow it. You could say Satoshi with his early mining and various other "insiders", whether their identity is known or not, are at the top. I don't necessarily agree that it's a ponzi scheme, although I'm sympathetic with many anti-crypto arguments, but that's the reasoning if expect they'd use.
- chiefalchemist 5y ago
  Ponzi scheme? Perhaps not. So maybe we need a new word? It's a new invention, and thus might require a new lexicon to capture its essence.
  - cygx 5y ago
    Here are some terms that already exists: 'economic bubble', 'pump and dump', 'greater fool theory', ...
    - Ekaros 5y ago
      'Mania' etc. There is nothing special about crypto apart it being digital and new... Art, collectibles, real estate... Many things have been overvalued with basis that prices have always gone up and being paid by those acquiring them later...
  - jtbayly 5y ago
    Sounds like a fiat currency in many respects. Which is funny since that’s what it was supposed to not be.

NeutralForest 5y ago

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck... Even without the Ponzi scheme and market manipulation; Proof-of-Work based cryptocurrencies are an ecological catastrophe. Other Proof-of-Something™ currencies do not bring much to the table either. At some point it's only normal there's a push back against cryptocurrencies.

samarama 5y ago
That’s why the vast majority of L1s are not proof of work.
- NeutralForest 5y ago
  Yet Bitcoin is still considered the OG token and a "true" cryptocurrency as mentioned above and not old dangerous tech. Also in the last 10 years, only a handful of tokens have had a somewhat usable blockchain which grinds to a halt anytime people share pictures of cats or monkeys and we're told to wait for another year or two for an update to whatever protocol is trendy at the moment. Rinse and repeat every year. Also also, every other year a cryptocurrency comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems with don't have. So no, not interested.
  - everfree 5y ago
    > Yet Bitcoin is still considered the OG token and a "true" cryptocurrency as mentioned above and not old dangerous tech. The solution to that is to educate people on how Bitcoin is old dangerous tech, not to throw out all other blockchains along with Bitcoin. > a somewhat usable blockchain which grinds to a halt anytime people share pictures of cats or monkeys These chains don't "grind to a halt" in any sense of that phrase, they dynamically price a scarce resource (block space). The chain runs at 100% capacity during these spikes in demand. > we're told to wait for another year or two for an update to whatever protocol is trendy at the moment. Rinse and repeat every year. Every few years, cryptocurrencies upgrade their capacity using new technology, and every few years, enough new people start using them to saturate the new, higher capacity. There's nothing contradictory about that. > Also also, every other year a cryptocurrency comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems with don't have. Every other year a traditional tech company also comes along and professes to be the second coming of God with solutions to problems we don't have. But we don't judge Apple based on the failure of Juicero. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturgeon%27s_law > So no, not interested. You have a right to not be interested, but you're choosing to share your take, and your take is incorrect.

DonHopkins 5y ago

The fact that cryptocurrencies are even Ponzier than any Ponzi scheme, more pyramidal than any pyramid scheme, much getter, richer, and quicker than any get-rich-quick scheme, and more shaggily carpeted and vigorously jerked than any rug-pull scheme, doesn't mean they're not scams. Edit: when shills gets called on purposefully missing the point by arguing over semantics, they switch to outright denial and making stuff up. Actually, ethereum and bitcoin ARE both scams, in fact the biggest ones of them all. And that IS the point.

cinntaile 5y ago
There are definitely cryptocurrencies out there that are scams, but big ones like ethereum and bitcoin for example are not. This is besides the point though.
- mdoms 5y ago
  Bitcoin and Ethereum are scams.
  - everfree 5y ago
    Why?
    - DonHopkins 5y ago
      Haven't you watched "Line Goes Up - The Problem With NFTs" yet? It's about a whole lot more than just NFTs. Your question is thoroughly addressed and truthfully answered in that video. Also see his references and citations in "Sources and Further Reading" for more proof. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ_xWvX1n9g Sources and Further Reading: https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://web3isgoinggreat.com/ https://tante.cc/2021/12/17/the-third-web/ https://tante.cc/2021/12/17/the-third-web/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/03/11/nfts-crypto-grifters-try-to-scam-artists-again/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/03/11/nfts-crypto-... https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beeple-art-buyer-and-his-nft-defi-scheme/ https://amycastor.com/2021/03/14/metakovan-the-mystery-beepl... https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html https://www.stephendiehl.com/blog/crypto-absurd.html https://blog.mollywhite.net/blockchains-are-not-what-they-say/ https://blog.mollywhite.net/blockchains-are-not-what-they-sa... https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/1478017698676228099?s=20 https://twitter.com/davetroy/status/1478017698676228099?s=20 https://davidgolumbia.medium.com/cryptocurrency-is-garbage-so-is-blockchain-3e80078e77fe https://davidgolumbia.medium.com/cryptocurrency-is-garbage-s... https://marker.medium.com/fintech-is-a-scam-a-listicle-in-eight-parts-7b6161f3a35a https://marker.medium.com/fintech-is-a-scam-a-listicle-in-ei... https://naavik.co/business-breakdowns/axie-infinity/#axie-decon= https://naavik.co/business-breakdowns/axie-infinity/#axie-de... https://www.gawker.com/culture/the-future-is-useless-expensive https://www.gawker.com/culture/the-future-is-useless-expensi... https://twitter.com/NFTtheft https://twitter.com/NFTtheft https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/nfts-werent-supposed-end-like/618488/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/04/nfts-weren... https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-11-05-baseless-nft-hype-hits-a-crescendo-but-its-play-to-earn-thats-worth-watching-opinion https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2021-11-05-baseless-n... https://www.technollama.co.uk/platform-is-law-the-cautionary-tale-of-stolen-nfts https://www.technollama.co.uk/platform-is-law-the-cautionary... https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/02/12/libra-shrugged-chapter-6-banking-the-unbanked/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2021/02/12/libra-shrugg... https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed https://twitter.com/Bitfinexed

gjvc 5y ago

The common characteristic is that "early adopters" get disproportionately large returns compared to later adopters. Indeed those later adopters are financing the exit of the participants who "got in first". In this way it's like a Ponzi scheme, but the same could be said for stocks. You might call the above a simplification; that is fine -- my point is that this is a (inaccurate) linguistic shorthand -- calling something by the name of something else which shares a characteristic, but it is inaccurate (a Ponzi scheme has a central organizer / hub), and bitcoin does not.

Hallucinaut 5y ago
It's grossly untrue to say it's a Ponzi scheme "like stocks" which are part ownership in companies that actually sell things in the real world and are valued by the present value of their future expected cash flows, rather than cryptocurrencies which have no such relationship to the real world, and some would argue are valued entirely on the premise of returns that can only be sustained by finding the next sucker.
- gjvc 5y ago
  I think we are in violent agreement. Two things can share a characteristic and yet be completely different, but people focus on the similarity (which is easily understood and explainable) and ignore the differences (which can be more difficult to understand and explain).
- datadata 5y ago
  There are stocks which are fraudulent, e.g Theranos, Enron, or ZZZZ Best. The fact that a company might have expected cash flows does not make them impervious to defrauding investors. Similarly, something issued without any claims of future cash flows does not imply that it must be a fraud.
- everfree 5y ago
  Some stocks have no expected cash flows, some cryptocurrencies have expected cash flows. You can't generalize entire asset classes like that.

mdoms 5y ago

They're all Ponzi schemes. Every last one of them.

Ekaros 5y ago

I keep being annoyed that people keep throwing ponzi at things that really aren't that. Words has meaning and Ponzi describe certain kind of scheme. Not a scam in general...