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> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger th

> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.

leereeves 5y ago
Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.
- yuppie_scum 5y ago
  It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    That's not what happened in the Soviet Union at all. The people didn't "dethrone the corrupt leader", in fact the people had very little to do with the events of 1991. Instead, the leader of the Soviet Union (Gorbachev) attempted liberal reforms which provoked a coup attempt led by eight high level Soviet officials who were communist hard-liners. When the coup failed, the leaders of various Soviet Republics declared independence - including Boris Yeltsin, who was the leader of Russia within the Soviet Union before the coup (specifically, the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR). The whole thing was a power struggle between high ranking politicians. And in addition, far from being evidence that sanctions can work, the Soviet example is evidence that authoritarian empires can collapse when they attempt to liberalize: "The process of implementing perestroika created shortages, political, social, and economic tensions within the Soviet Union and is often blamed for the political ascent of nationalism and nationalist political parties in the constituent republics. Perestroika and its associated structural ailments have been cited as major catalysts leading to the dissolution of the Soviet Union."[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika
- koonsolo 5y ago
  Ironically enough, it worked in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan Edit: maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    > maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government. Absolutely, I don't question that. And economic issues can be a powerful force toward revolution. But foreign sanctions always seem to strengthen the regime and provide a convenient excuse even for economic issues that aren't caused by the sanctions. Sanctions seem to make revolution far less likely, which isn't the desired outcome at all.
    - koonsolo 5y ago
      I guess I have to agree with you here, because I can't come up with a proper example. But remark that economic sanctions do have its use by not pumping more money into aggressive nations.

leereeves 5y ago

Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.

yuppie_scum 5y ago
It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.
- leereeves 5y ago
  That's not what happened in the Soviet Union at all. The people didn't "dethrone the corrupt leader", in fact the people had very little to do with the events of 1991. Instead, the leader of the Soviet Union (Gorbachev) attempted liberal reforms which provoked a coup attempt led by eight high level Soviet officials who were communist hard-liners. When the coup failed, the leaders of various Soviet Republics declared independence - including Boris Yeltsin, who was the leader of Russia within the Soviet Union before the coup (specifically, the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR). The whole thing was a power struggle between high ranking politicians. And in addition, far from being evidence that sanctions can work, the Soviet example is evidence that authoritarian empires can collapse when they attempt to liberalize: "The process of implementing perestroika created shortages, political, social, and economic tensions within the Soviet Union and is often blamed for the political ascent of nationalism and nationalist political parties in the constituent republics. Perestroika and its associated structural ailments have been cited as major catalysts leading to the dissolution of the Soviet Union."[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika
koonsolo 5y ago
Ironically enough, it worked in Ukraine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euromaidan Edit: maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government.
- leereeves 5y ago
  > maybe it wasn't squeezed out by an embargo, but it shows that people can overthrow a government. Absolutely, I don't question that. And economic issues can be a powerful force toward revolution. But foreign sanctions always seem to strengthen the regime and provide a convenient excuse even for economic issues that aren't caused by the sanctions. Sanctions seem to make revolution far less likely, which isn't the desired outcome at all.
  - koonsolo 5y ago
    I guess I have to agree with you here, because I can't come up with a proper example. But remark that economic sanctions do have its use by not pumping more money into aggressive nations.