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It’s horrible to consider this angle, but this could turn out to be a blessing for many European countries. There is a massive shortage of labour in large parts

It’s horrible to consider this angle, but this could turn out to be a blessing for many European countries. There is a massive shortage of labour in large parts of Europe. There are large, well integrated Ukrainian minorities already in many European countries and many Ukrainians are well educated (esp. in the much needed STEM fields). So not to put Portugal down but it is certainly to some point self serving and I could actually see competition between Euro countries for those people in the medium term.

trasz 5y ago
There’s no such thing as “shortage of labor”. What you are thinking of is shortage of wages.
impossiblefork 5y ago
I don't think that's true. Even skilled immigration depresses wages of skilled workers. There's an analysis from the Dutch government Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis on this, which shows essentially this, which can be found in English translation on https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/immigration-and-dutch-economy.pdf https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/.... One thing that I think is neglected even in this study however, is that bringing in even a very productive person increases things like housing competition, and even just bringing in a few people can cause prices to balloon, just as a tiny shortage can cause prices to balloon. It would therefore almost certainly be better to have Ukraine functioning and for Europe to trade with an ever more integrated and ever more well-functioning Ukraine. Letting these people in isn't something is good for the economy, it's a matter of protecting people from war-- i.e. they're refugees.
- weatherlite 5y ago
  > It would therefore almost certainly be better to have Ukraine functioning and for Europe Indeed, it sound crazy to me for Europe to be able to successfully absorb 40+ million Ukraianians. And even if the guy is only talking about absorbing the young and skilled, it's just gonna hurt those in the Ukraine who will be left behind.
  - polski-g 5y ago
    There are more Ethiopian doctors in America than in Ethiopia. Great for America. Atrocious for Ethiopia.
DoingIsLearning 5y ago
You're rationale is based on a cause that as far as I can tell is just a meme from US media. > There is a massive shortage of labour in large parts of Europe Citation needed?
- nikolayasdf123 5y ago
  yeah, hard to believe labor shortage. most industrial jobs in EU shipped to China, last I heard.
blagie 5y ago
"Well-integrated" isn't quite right. Slavic minorities are treated horribly by most Western Europeans (and Americans too). Historically, you'd go West, make money, and come back. Or if your country was bad enough, you'd go West, accept mistreatment, and stay. They're well-integrated in the sense of "keeping your head down and not causing any trouble." If you cause trouble, you're liable to be deported, lose your job, or have other consequences. Tolerance for foreigners has gone down in the past two decades by quite a lot. There's a perception the current culture wars have helped, but for most immigrants, they've done the opposite.
- refurb 5y ago
  Slavs are horribly treated in the Americas? “Slavs” is a European term. I worked with a bunch of Eastern Europeans in Canada and everyone is like “oh, that’s the former communist countries”. The reputation of “slavs” in Europe does not carry to the Americas. They’re just “europeans” to us. I used to chuckle s bit when Europeans would say “oh im from the Lorraine region” or “my ancestors were from Prussia”. I’m like “mother f’er nobody gives a shit, here you’re just white”.
  - blagie 5y ago
    I live in "the Americas." The discrimination isn't based on an abstract ethnicity. If you say you're Ukrainian, Russian, or Belarussian, no one will care. The discrimination is based on culture, communication style, accents, and a slew of other things. Next time you're watching your favorite TV show, have a look at the person with the Slavic accent, and see what stereotype they play. Are they the evil villain? The awkward nerdy pervert? The village crazy? Pay attention for a few months. In my experience, 100% of the portrayals are based on stereotypes. Those stereotypes show up in schools, workplaces, and courts.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Maybe, just maybe the Russian accent, but Yakov Smirnoff was universally loved, so it’s not like Eastern European = evil. I would agree that in general “foreign accent” had certain connotations, but I would challenge any average North American to identify a Russian vs Polish vs Yugoslavian accent. And maybe my take is because I’m from a part of North American that was pretty much settled by Eastern Europeans? I mean they were most of the farmers back in the early 1900’s.

trasz 5y ago

There’s no such thing as “shortage of labor”. What you are thinking of is shortage of wages.

impossiblefork 5y ago

I don't think that's true. Even skilled immigration depresses wages of skilled workers. There's an analysis from the Dutch government Bureau for Economic Policy Analysis on this, which shows essentially this, which can be found in English translation on https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/immigration-and-dutch-economy.pdf https://www.cpb.nl/sites/default/files/publicaties/download/.... One thing that I think is neglected even in this study however, is that bringing in even a very productive person increases things like housing competition, and even just bringing in a few people can cause prices to balloon, just as a tiny shortage can cause prices to balloon. It would therefore almost certainly be better to have Ukraine functioning and for Europe to trade with an ever more integrated and ever more well-functioning Ukraine. Letting these people in isn't something is good for the economy, it's a matter of protecting people from war-- i.e. they're refugees.

weatherlite 5y ago
> It would therefore almost certainly be better to have Ukraine functioning and for Europe Indeed, it sound crazy to me for Europe to be able to successfully absorb 40+ million Ukraianians. And even if the guy is only talking about absorbing the young and skilled, it's just gonna hurt those in the Ukraine who will be left behind.
- polski-g 5y ago
  There are more Ethiopian doctors in America than in Ethiopia. Great for America. Atrocious for Ethiopia.

DoingIsLearning 5y ago

You're rationale is based on a cause that as far as I can tell is just a meme from US media. > There is a massive shortage of labour in large parts of Europe Citation needed?

nikolayasdf123 5y ago
yeah, hard to believe labor shortage. most industrial jobs in EU shipped to China, last I heard.

blagie 5y ago

"Well-integrated" isn't quite right. Slavic minorities are treated horribly by most Western Europeans (and Americans too). Historically, you'd go West, make money, and come back. Or if your country was bad enough, you'd go West, accept mistreatment, and stay. They're well-integrated in the sense of "keeping your head down and not causing any trouble." If you cause trouble, you're liable to be deported, lose your job, or have other consequences. Tolerance for foreigners has gone down in the past two decades by quite a lot. There's a perception the current culture wars have helped, but for most immigrants, they've done the opposite.

refurb 5y ago
Slavs are horribly treated in the Americas? “Slavs” is a European term. I worked with a bunch of Eastern Europeans in Canada and everyone is like “oh, that’s the former communist countries”. The reputation of “slavs” in Europe does not carry to the Americas. They’re just “europeans” to us. I used to chuckle s bit when Europeans would say “oh im from the Lorraine region” or “my ancestors were from Prussia”. I’m like “mother f’er nobody gives a shit, here you’re just white”.
- blagie 5y ago
  I live in "the Americas." The discrimination isn't based on an abstract ethnicity. If you say you're Ukrainian, Russian, or Belarussian, no one will care. The discrimination is based on culture, communication style, accents, and a slew of other things. Next time you're watching your favorite TV show, have a look at the person with the Slavic accent, and see what stereotype they play. Are they the evil villain? The awkward nerdy pervert? The village crazy? Pay attention for a few months. In my experience, 100% of the portrayals are based on stereotypes. Those stereotypes show up in schools, workplaces, and courts.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Maybe, just maybe the Russian accent, but Yakov Smirnoff was universally loved, so it’s not like Eastern European = evil. I would agree that in general “foreign accent” had certain connotations, but I would challenge any average North American to identify a Russian vs Polish vs Yugoslavian accent. And maybe my take is because I’m from a part of North American that was pretty much settled by Eastern Europeans? I mean they were most of the farmers back in the early 1900’s.