7 ms·

Something interesting I guess most people don't know, the pro-ukrainian mobilisations in Poland (I can only speak about Poland) is amazing. My FB wall is full o

• futharkshill 5y ago
  Poland has a collective memory of Russian oppression and aggression
  • EugeneOZ 5y ago
    Maybe it's time to stop cultivating this hatred. Otherwise, you’ll have to keep hating other nations. It's a road to hatred hell - many countries and nations in Europe had conflicts. Separate a regime from a nation. I don't know any Russian (I’m Russian in Spain) who would have any negativity to the Poles. Maybe it would be better to stop the hatred from another side as well.
    • newby 5y ago
      • EugeneOZ 5y ago
        • newby 5y ago
          > Also, if you read the history of your country (and nation), you’ll see that one of your neighbors was occupying your country for a much, much longer time - maybe you’ll find another target to hate ;) That is the thing you do not get - when you read about it in history books, it is not the same as experience something yourself. When it is your life that is being damaged, it hurts... and hurt people are not objective. People generalize. Read your own comment - you read one unpleasant comment from one guy on the internet and you are already generalizing it to Czechs you met in Prague. How would you react if someone did this[1] to someone you know? I did not say that I hate you. I was just trying to explain to you why many people might. They do not want to hate (it is not pleasant). They did not choose to "cultivate hatred" as you say. They were hurt and hatred is natural reaction to trauma. Instead of blaming them, the victims, blame those who hurt them. [1] - GRAPHIC! - https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/t1z8i8/near_khersonukraine_russian_soldier_shot_down_an/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ThatsInsane/comments/t1z8i8/near_kh...
          • EugeneOZ 5y ago
          • dang 5y ago
            In addition to not posting flamewar comments as I asked you upthread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30481406 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30481406), please do not cross into personal attack as you did here. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
            • newby 5y ago
              I got carried away. I apologize to both you and EugeneOZ. However, could you please point out what personal attack you mean, @dang? I am asking genuinely to learn. I see now that I did not argue in a constructive way and I am sorry about it but I honestly did not intend to personally attack EugeneOZ. I was not saying that I hate him or anything like that, he is clearly not responsible for what is going on in Ukraine. I was trying to re-frame what he perceives as hatred and explain it as people being hurt, something they do not necesarily control. EugeneOZ, to put it absolutely clearly, I know you bear no personal responsibility, you do not deserve hatred, and if you understood it that way, there was misunderstanding caused by me and I sincerely apologize.
      • dang 5y ago
        Nationalistic flamewar is not welcome here. No more of this, please. I'm sure you have good reasons for feeling the way you do, but that doesn't make it ok to post destructively to this forum. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
• tokamak 5y ago
  There is a subtle difference between cutting border fence and going through border checkpoint. During Belarus crisis those who went for asylum request were considered. Those who hid in forest did not. Some were not granted asylum as they came from stable country. Simple as that.
• peakaboo 5y ago
  • y4mi 5y ago
    What's the "against Ukraine" viewpoint then? That what's Russia is saying is true and the Jewish prime minister is a Nazi? Do keep in mind that I'm not exaggerating, that's literally what they did.
    • cheschire 5y ago
      As an aside, an interesting concept of the book 1984 was that people could be prevented from thinking against the state by removing the concepts themselves from the language. One could conceivably be unable to develop a rational full perspective on events of any kind if they are never made aware of a subset of information.
      • hhmc 5y ago
        > One could conceivably be unable to develop a rational full perspective on events of any kind if they are never made aware of a subset of information. This is true but very uninteresting (of course if you're denied crucial information you can't build a holistic view). What's more interesting is: is it actually the case that information is being systemically and totally suppressed, for which there seems to be little evidence. It also seems like you're trying to use this trivial truth to stealthily support an anti-ukraine position.
        • cheschire 5y ago
          You are inferring that which I am not implying. I clearly said this was aside the parent and grandparent posts, as it was not in line with the original intent or content. You're using HN guideline wording ("uninteresting") seemingly in preparation to flag my comment if I step outside of your box. And your final sentence can have a chilling effect on intellectual conversation. If this is a "trivial truth" then why do so many people fail to grasp the connections between the work of fiction and the modern realities? Your world view perhaps takes it as a given, but people should be afforded the opportunity to reach realization well after the point that you yourself achieved it. I was pointing it out because not everyone is aware that this is possible, and it hopefully creates an interesting perspective for someone on an otherwise flamebait comment. It's past the point of usefulness now, however, as the other post has been rightfully flagged. edit: To go a bit further, my original comment does feel a bit off-topic on reflection. That is, of course, why these sorts of posts should simply be flagged and just move on. I should've avoided trying to dredge up some interesting conversation. Additionally, I feel like your post would've been more interesting and encouraging of conversation had you simply stuck with the question "what evidence is there that this is occurring NOW though?" I personally have no evidence this is happening, but the conversation would at that point be open to a third party contributing evidence if there were any.
• rapsey 5y ago
  > Now not so good tidbit. Just few months ago we had a lot of people lured into Belarus by Lukashenko trying to come to Europe. Poland treated them really really poorly. Those people were from the middle east, pakistan, afghanistan and so on no? A big difference when it's your neighbor in need.
  • ChuckNorris89 5y ago
    >Those people were from the middle east, pakistan, afghanistan and so on no? A big difference when it's your neighbor. There are many people from the Middle East living, studying and working in Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czechia, etc. without any issues. One for them is my dentist and another in engaged to one of my cousins and is studying medicine to become a doctor. The big difference is they came here legally and with money, studies, jobs or skills to support themselves, so the locals only have an issues with the illegal economic chancers trying to game the asylum and welfare systems, and nothing against people from the Middle East. Those welfare migrants usually end up in countries like Sweden or Germany anyway, where whatever is left of the middle class taxpayer, is "happy" to give away half their income to support them indefinitely, with the wishful thinking that they will eventually contribute to their economy, pension system, and reverse the declining birthrates. At least they were right about the latter.
  • someotherperson 5y ago
    Also slightly different because in the Middle East, it's the Poles (and other pearl-clutching Europeans) that are over there arming and training the rebels, sending "peace keeping" forces, overthrowing governments and trying to partition their countries. It's not exactly a breakaway from the normal Western hypocrisy to see that they don't treat refugees from those countries well. What the Poles see when they look at Ukranians are the same thing that most of the anglosphere sees -- fair skinned Caucasians. That's why "everyone" cares and why this relatively uneventful situation is getting this amount of news coverage.
    • b112 5y ago
      That's why "everyone" cares and why this relatively uneventful situation is getting this amount of news coverage You must know very little of history, to think coverage is only due to race. Show me another country with the same nuclear arsenal, or with the military might, invading countries this large, in a location which has started two world wars. Playing the race card is... weak.
• surbas 5y ago
  Adding some more context. The Ukrainian refugees are fellow Slavic people and the refugees from last time were mostly Muslims from the Middle East... and that the Far-Right tends to be racist.
  • brabel 5y ago
    While the fact that Ukrainians belong to the same ethnicity as Poles definitely makes a difference in how people react, another fact that counts is that the Middle Eastern refugees did not get to Poland directly from a war zone, and they did not intend to seek asylum in Poland, they were flown into a peaceful country, Belarus, and were seeking to reach the richer countries of Europe like Germany, Sweden and the UK... Poland was just their second transit country after Belarus. I think that even discounting race, this is a big difference that we cannot simply forget about.
  • temp8964 5y ago
    They are all white race. Maybe you should use the word ethnicist or religionist?
    • trasz 5y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_racism
      • temp8964 5y ago
        "Several academics have critiqued the use of cultural racism to describe prejudices and discrimination on the basis of cultural difference. Those who reserve the term racism for biological racism for instance do not believe that cultural racism is a useful or appropriate concept."
• stavros 5y ago
  > There is over 100 cars long queue at a border willing to transport Ukrainians escaping war where they want. They can travel by train for free in Poland. That's fantastic. A person I know is in Ukraine (currently at the border with Poland, AFAIK) and he reports multiple-kilometer long queues of people on foot trying to cross the border. It sounds like they'll need all the help they can get.
• nikolayasdf123 5y ago
  Poland has ties to Ukraine (especially western part) stretching for more than a thousand years. Recent decades the relationship was quite positive. It is almost same people. Poland has bitter painful recent memory of aggression from Soviet Union just recently. Now there is a real risk obliteration of whole Ukraine, who just recently got independence after hundreds of years of invasion.
  • b112 5y ago
    To be fair, hundreds of years of invasion kind of describes every country on the planet. Maybe you mean occupation, here? But also, most countries have had endlessly shifting borders, with endlessly shifting immigration, emigration, and cultures are a result. All current states, are at best a few hundred years old, really.
    • Reason077 5y ago
      Portugal is 900 years old and its borders are virtually unchanged since the 1297 Treaty of Alcañices. England has had mostly unchanged borders since 927!
      • JetSpiegel 5y ago
        Modulo the old colonies. Brazil for about 200 years, the African colonies in 1974, and Macao and East Timor even later.
• blagie 5y ago
  I think the key difference, more so than racism, was context. The Middle Eastern refugees got there as an attempt to undermine Poland and the EU. They were transported there by Belarus explicitly as part of a geopolitical game. You treat an attack very differently. If Poland let the refugees in, I expect Belarus would pull more stunts like this. It was no good for anyone. There is some mild tension with Ukrainians coming to Poland as low-cost labor, but at the end of the day, it's the same culture. Or at least it was before Poland started to Westernize its culture. Honestly, I think the right solution here is to reform the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. Poland, Lithuania, and Ukraine really ought to be one country. If Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, or Moldova want to join in, the more the merrier. Belarus and Russia, when they're ready. Estonia, by the way, is the odd man out. It has the least cultural or ethnic connection; much less than you'd expect. But I think it'd be a happy marriage. It's a compatible kind of diversity, where each side brings something complementary rather than conflicting and both sides benefit.
  • janmo 5y ago
    Also one difference is that The Ukrainians only let children and women leave the country. Men 18-60 are not allowed to leave. So the people coming over are truly vulnerable.
    • blagie 5y ago
      No, that's not a difference. Poland has been preparing to welcome Ukrainians long before the invasion started. It had opened up its borders and had logistic ready to receive them as soon as Russia invaded. All of this happened before Ukraine closed its borders to fighting-age men.
  • eru 5y ago
    I don't think making bigger countries is a good idea. (But then, I like my adopted city state home. So I might be biased.) Tear down the borders between countries instead as much as possible. Like eg the EU does (despite all its other faults).
  • trasz 5y ago
    It’s not about “letting them in”, it’s about protecting the border without breaking the law. Poland chose to do illegal pushback instead, effectively killing some two dozen random civilians. https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/09/poland-belarus-border-crisis/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/research/2021/09/poland-be...
• baybal2 5y ago
  I was advocating for arming Belarus rebels from Poland, and Lithuania. If we had free Belarus by today, this war wouldn't have happened. Without constant pressure on the capital, Ukrainian military would have easy time doing a general offensive on southern direction, or maybe even reaching Rostov, and Volgograd. It was very appaling to see Polish government initially agreeing to sneak in weapons bought by volunteers, and then detaining it on the border.
• trasz 5y ago
  Same. While polish society is hugely racist towards refugees from Middle East, largely because of a government’s massive hate campaign from a few years ago, it seems polish nationalists failed to achieve the same against Ukrainians - probably thanks to the fact that many Ukrainians already live and Poland, so people can see for themselves there is no reason to hate them.
• yrgulation 5y ago
  Same in Romania, the boarders are jammed with romanian citizens providing aid, shelter and transport. I am actually amazed, there is so much help that charities are overwhelmed. People are taking ukrainians in their homes. Russia will lose.
• pyuser583 5y ago
  Wasn’t the incident in Belarus an attempt by Lukashenko to mess with the EU? I mean he basically flew refugees from the Middle East to Belarus for the purpose of putting them in Poland border and embarrassing Poland. When a foreign power is trying to violate a neighbors borders, it’s fair to talk about protecting your borders. Is anyone actually OK with Poland taking any refugee Lukashenko leaves at your border?