4 ms·

Against Alcohol, #6437

5 points by smitty1e 5y ago

dmitriid 5y ago
Banning alcohol pushes it into the black market, as both the US and the USSR discovered. What works better IMO is educating people about alcohol and moving away from hard liquor to beer and wine. But it's a complex issue in general.
- aliswe 5y ago
  And "moving away from" would be facilitated how?
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    Education, higher prices on hard liquor.
schwartzworld 5y ago
As states and countries realize reefer madness was fake and that the war on drugs creates more problems than it solves, this seems tone deaf. I'm not saying alcohol shouldn't be illegal, certainly it has destroyed many lives, but it's not possible to do so and trying destroys even more lives. And unlike other drugs you can undetectably make booze in your own kitchen for a few cents.
nobody9999 5y ago
From TFA: This paper evaluates the impact of a sudden and unexpected nation-wide alcohol sales ban in South Africa. We find that this policy causally reduced injury-induced mortality in the country by at least 14% during the five weeks of the ban. We argue that this estimate constitutes a lower bound on the true impact of alcohol on injury- induced mortality. We also document a sharp drop in violent crimes, indicating a tight link between alcohol and aggressive behavior in society. Our results underscore the severe harm that alcohol can cause and point towards a role for policy measures that target the heaviest drinkers in society. That alcohol use impairs coordination and judgement, and makes a significant portion of users more aggressive/violent isn't news to, well, anyone. Archaeologists have documented the use of mind altering substances (including alcohol) for nearly ten thousand years[0]. And such use almost certainly goes back much, much farther. Alcohol use isn't going to stop, regardless of the negative consequences. And creating a black market (cf. US 18th Amendment[1], the US "war on some drugs", etc.) only engenders more violence, as there is no legal way to resolve disputes. As such, while I'm sure the findings of this study are correct, unless and until humans stop using mind altering substances (i.e., never), some alcohol (and other substances) users will continue to make poor choices and act aggressively and violently regardless of any "policies" put in place to reduce/eliminate such activity. In fact, we already have such policies (laws against drunk driving, assault and property damage, etc.) and while we may make headway with education and alternatives to personal vehicles, we'll never eliminate such behavior. [0] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/our-ancestors-got-high-too https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/our-ancestors-got-high... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...
aliswe 5y ago
I'd like to throw in a contrarian opinion to the general HN crowd (and my sibling comments), putting my social credit points on the line... For reference, I'm a Sweden-born-raised ethnic Swedish white male, I know that's relevant to a few people so I'd just like to throw that into the mix as well. In Pakistan for example, people in general do not drink alcohol. The same goes for most of north africa. It's basically unheard of and stigmatized that people would go for a beer in a western-common fashion. Saudi Arabia and even UAE obviously varies a bit but the same stigma definitely applies. (I have extensive experience from these societies but feel free to challenge my claims) Sure, hasheesh exists, but it's not socially accepted and it's not at all as widespread as alcohol consumption in the west. It's definitely something a young professional will avoid for career reasons, for example. I really feel that a lot of the cultural differences and conflicts have a common ground somewhere, and a more or less common problem definition, but the solution varies. For example, much (but not all) of western society is against total bans. It's basically stigmatized to believe in such a thing with a few exceptions. Far and middle eastern societes are not as negative against it though - I guess there are historical reasons for this - and as such the sets of acceptable solutions to problems differ from the western ones. For the record I would also like to mention some assumptions I've heard in Sweden that simply arent true but are quite understandable given the mentioned difference in mentality. Human, if I had a dime every time I heard "adultery exists in the exact same amount in north african and middle eastern countries as in the west", "sure they might not have alcohol but they have other drugs - it's simply a matter of swapping one vice for another", and other absurdities. So one example of a fundamentally shared understanding of a problem is the danger of alcohol and drugs. Western ideology leans more to allowing but educating, Eastern ideologies lean more towards bans. The idea of women commonly being treated badly by men and taken advantage of is also definitely shared. I dont think anyone really thinks that for example gangster rap or other popular cultures are really portraying women and men as having equal value, and certainly not pornography which more or less amounts to showing the male dominance and humiliating the woman as much as possible, swedish surveys showed that a staggering amount of women in sweden have been subjected to sexual violence, including spitting and hitting, and other surveys show that this even exists in high school ages! West wants to educate away the problem, which is why we have sexual education in preschool, even for toddlers, in Sweden, to give sensible ideas to people at an early age, but virtually noone talks about banning pornography or denigrating depictions of women because in the west, we dont do bans. .. and Eastern ideologies lean towards an honor and relative based structure and security net. My point is that we perhaps aren't so different from eachother after all. Just my two cents.

5 points by smitty1e 5y ago

Banning alcohol pushes it into the black market, as both the US and the USSR discovered. What works better IMO is educating people about alcohol and moving away from hard liquor to beer and wine. But it's a complex issue in general.

aliswe 5y ago
And "moving away from" would be facilitated how?
- dmitriid 5y ago
  Education, higher prices on hard liquor.

schwartzworld 5y ago

As states and countries realize reefer madness was fake and that the war on drugs creates more problems than it solves, this seems tone deaf. I'm not saying alcohol shouldn't be illegal, certainly it has destroyed many lives, but it's not possible to do so and trying destroys even more lives. And unlike other drugs you can undetectably make booze in your own kitchen for a few cents.

nobody9999 5y ago

From TFA: This paper evaluates the impact of a sudden and unexpected nation-wide alcohol sales ban in South Africa. We find that this policy causally reduced injury-induced mortality in the country by at least 14% during the five weeks of the ban. We argue that this estimate constitutes a lower bound on the true impact of alcohol on injury- induced mortality. We also document a sharp drop in violent crimes, indicating a tight link between alcohol and aggressive behavior in society. Our results underscore the severe harm that alcohol can cause and point towards a role for policy measures that target the heaviest drinkers in society. That alcohol use impairs coordination and judgement, and makes a significant portion of users more aggressive/violent isn't news to, well, anyone. Archaeologists have documented the use of mind altering substances (including alcohol) for nearly ten thousand years[0]. And such use almost certainly goes back much, much farther. Alcohol use isn't going to stop, regardless of the negative consequences. And creating a black market (cf. US 18th Amendment[1], the US "war on some drugs", etc.) only engenders more violence, as there is no legal way to resolve disputes. As such, while I'm sure the findings of this study are correct, unless and until humans stop using mind altering substances (i.e., never), some alcohol (and other substances) users will continue to make poor choices and act aggressively and violently regardless of any "policies" put in place to reduce/eliminate such activity. In fact, we already have such policies (laws against drunk driving, assault and property damage, etc.) and while we may make headway with education and alternatives to personal vehicles, we'll never eliminate such behavior. [0] https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/our-ancestors-got-high-too https://www.discovermagazine.com/mind/our-ancestors-got-high... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eighteenth_Amendment_to_the_Un...

aliswe 5y ago

I'd like to throw in a contrarian opinion to the general HN crowd (and my sibling comments), putting my social credit points on the line... For reference, I'm a Sweden-born-raised ethnic Swedish white male, I know that's relevant to a few people so I'd just like to throw that into the mix as well. In Pakistan for example, people in general do not drink alcohol. The same goes for most of north africa. It's basically unheard of and stigmatized that people would go for a beer in a western-common fashion. Saudi Arabia and even UAE obviously varies a bit but the same stigma definitely applies. (I have extensive experience from these societies but feel free to challenge my claims) Sure, hasheesh exists, but it's not socially accepted and it's not at all as widespread as alcohol consumption in the west. It's definitely something a young professional will avoid for career reasons, for example. I really feel that a lot of the cultural differences and conflicts have a common ground somewhere, and a more or less common problem definition, but the solution varies. For example, much (but not all) of western society is against total bans. It's basically stigmatized to believe in such a thing with a few exceptions. Far and middle eastern societes are not as negative against it though - I guess there are historical reasons for this - and as such the sets of acceptable solutions to problems differ from the western ones. For the record I would also like to mention some assumptions I've heard in Sweden that simply arent true but are quite understandable given the mentioned difference in mentality. Human, if I had a dime every time I heard "adultery exists in the exact same amount in north african and middle eastern countries as in the west", "sure they might not have alcohol but they have other drugs - it's simply a matter of swapping one vice for another", and other absurdities. So one example of a fundamentally shared understanding of a problem is the danger of alcohol and drugs. Western ideology leans more to allowing but educating, Eastern ideologies lean more towards bans. The idea of women commonly being treated badly by men and taken advantage of is also definitely shared. I dont think anyone really thinks that for example gangster rap or other popular cultures are really portraying women and men as having equal value, and certainly not pornography which more or less amounts to showing the male dominance and humiliating the woman as much as possible, swedish surveys showed that a staggering amount of women in sweden have been subjected to sexual violence, including spitting and hitting, and other surveys show that this even exists in high school ages! West wants to educate away the problem, which is why we have sexual education in preschool, even for toddlers, in Sweden, to give sensible ideas to people at an early age, but virtually noone talks about banning pornography or denigrating depictions of women because in the west, we dont do bans. .. and Eastern ideologies lean towards an honor and relative based structure and security net. My point is that we perhaps aren't so different from eachother after all. Just my two cents.