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I see many Russians already enraged about the war, some even doing protests against it. The fact is that most feel powerless and afraid against an autocratic go

I see many Russians already enraged about the war, some even doing protests against it. The fact is that most feel powerless and afraid against an autocratic government, and I feel it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake. (Maybe your country hasn’t experienced this yet, but hearing anecdotes from my country’s past I understand it’s really hard to mobilize when the next day you can be kidnapped by the secret police and end up in a prison cell where you get tortured to death.) Resistance is necessary, but it’s far easier said than done. I just don’t see a point treating ordinary Russians as “sinful” because of this event. If you’re enforcing standards like these on everyone, then I guess the entire US population is also responsible for all the the war crimes and atrocities the country has done for decades. And I don’t want to do that; even if the current elite controlling the US has done some of the most atrocious things in history, I don’t think the people living there “deserve” worse lives because they haven’t retaliated.

mrintellectual 5y ago
Well put. It is easy to forget that the actions of governments do not necessarily represent the will of the people.
- DavideNL 5y ago
  I agree... The first hit on Duckduckgo when searching for "Discrimination": "Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between people based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they belong or are perceived to belong. "
deleted 5y ago
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rich_sasha 5y ago
Well put indeed. Some further points: - Russia is not a regular democracy, it’s not like Putin has a democratic mandate for this war. Who can Russians vote for who is against the war? - Oddly, “regular” Russians are allies of the West here. Ultimately Putin can only fail due to internal pressures. So ideal sanctions cripple Russian elites and put pressure on the regular citizens, without alienating them. - Clearly, you can’t have your cake and eat it. If Russian revenues are affected through sanctions, regular Russians will suffer, as a byproduct. But blocking indiscriminately by IP is just a big middle finger for no good reason.
koonsolo 5y ago
> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.
- leereeves 5y ago
  Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.
  - yuppie_scum 5y ago
    It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.
    - leereeves 5y ago
      That's not what happened in the Soviet Union at all. The people didn't "dethrone the corrupt leader", in fact the people had very little to do with the events of 1991. Instead, the leader of the Soviet Union (Gorbachev) attempted liberal reforms which provoked a coup attempt led by eight high level Soviet officials who were communist hard-liners. When the coup failed, the leaders of various Soviet Republics declared independence - including Boris Yeltsin, who was the leader of Russia within the Soviet Union before the coup (specifically, the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR). The whole thing was a power struggle between high ranking politicians. And in addition, far from being evidence that sanctions can work, the Soviet example is evidence that authoritarian empires can collapse when they attempt to liberalize: "The process of implementing perestroika created shortages, political, social, and economic tensions within the Soviet Union and is often blamed for the political ascent of nationalism and nationalist political parties in the constituent republics. Perestroika and its associated structural ailments have been cited as major catalysts leading to the dissolution of the Soviet Union."[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika
threatofrain 5y ago
Then we shouldn't be okay with sanctions either, because effective sanctions are about damaging the economy so badly that the current regime feels the risk of instability. Sanctions rely on popular suffering to achieve this instability. Damage to the people is not a side effect but the core mechanism. There's little difference between IP blocking and economic sanctions. They both damage the economy (and thus the people) by virtue of isolation.
- cyber_kinetist 5y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree, economic sanctions (including IP blocking) damage the populace far more than the regime. And it only increases resentment towards the powers that imposed the sanction.

mrintellectual 5y ago

Well put. It is easy to forget that the actions of governments do not necessarily represent the will of the people.

DavideNL 5y ago
I agree... The first hit on Duckduckgo when searching for "Discrimination": "Discrimination is the act of making unjustified distinctions between people based on the groups, classes, or other categories to which they belong or are perceived to belong. "

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rich_sasha 5y ago

Well put indeed. Some further points: - Russia is not a regular democracy, it’s not like Putin has a democratic mandate for this war. Who can Russians vote for who is against the war? - Oddly, “regular” Russians are allies of the West here. Ultimately Putin can only fail due to internal pressures. So ideal sanctions cripple Russian elites and put pressure on the regular citizens, without alienating them. - Clearly, you can’t have your cake and eat it. If Russian revenues are affected through sanctions, regular Russians will suffer, as a byproduct. But blocking indiscriminately by IP is just a big middle finger for no good reason.

koonsolo 5y ago

> it’s very hard to tell them to retaliate when their lives are on stake I think the general concept is that the pain to continue their lives must be bigger than the pain to try and dethrone the corrupt leader. Not taking either side here, but I can see why it can work.

leereeves 5y ago
Honest question: has it ever worked? I know of many countries where it didn't work (e.g. Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Venezuela, Libya before the Western invasion, and even previous sanctions on Russia) but I can't think of one where it did.
- yuppie_scum 5y ago
  It happened in the Soviet Union in 1991.
  - leereeves 5y ago
    That's not what happened in the Soviet Union at all. The people didn't "dethrone the corrupt leader", in fact the people had very little to do with the events of 1991. Instead, the leader of the Soviet Union (Gorbachev) attempted liberal reforms which provoked a coup attempt led by eight high level Soviet officials who were communist hard-liners. When the coup failed, the leaders of various Soviet Republics declared independence - including Boris Yeltsin, who was the leader of Russia within the Soviet Union before the coup (specifically, the Chairman of the Supreme Soviet of the Russian SFSR). The whole thing was a power struggle between high ranking politicians. And in addition, far from being evidence that sanctions can work, the Soviet example is evidence that authoritarian empires can collapse when they attempt to liberalize: "The process of implementing perestroika created shortages, political, social, and economic tensions within the Soviet Union and is often blamed for the political ascent of nationalism and nationalist political parties in the constituent republics. Perestroika and its associated structural ailments have been cited as major catalysts leading to the dissolution of the Soviet Union."[1] 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika

threatofrain 5y ago

Then we shouldn't be okay with sanctions either, because effective sanctions are about damaging the economy so badly that the current regime feels the risk of instability. Sanctions rely on popular suffering to achieve this instability. Damage to the people is not a side effect but the core mechanism. There's little difference between IP blocking and economic sanctions. They both damage the economy (and thus the people) by virtue of isolation.

cyber_kinetist 5y ago
I wholeheartedly agree, economic sanctions (including IP blocking) damage the populace far more than the regime. And it only increases resentment towards the powers that imposed the sanction.