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NATO is a red herring. Of course, Ukrainians want protection from Russia but NATO is just the means, not the goal by itself. It makes all sense for Ukraine to

by NoPie 5y ago

NATO is a red herring. Of course, Ukrainians want protection from Russia but NATO is just the means, not the goal by itself. It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. But it is not relevant now. You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. The purpose of war is to conquer another country.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
>It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. We agree, it would be good for Ukraine if it was in NATO, but they aren't. War wouldn't have happened if they were, but they aren't. >You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done? Because it looks like it is happening right now, and we will see if Ukraine promises to stay neutral. >The purpose of war is to conquer another country. War has lots of purposes. You can conquer a country, you can destabilize a country, you can make them submit to terms.
- NoPie 5y ago
  Ukrainians are not going to stay neutral. They will never submit. Sorry, but that is only Putin's fantasy and ultimately his downfall.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    Perhaps you are right, and they will go back on any treaty they make with Russia. I suspect the government will almost certainly submit in the short term. In the long term, Russia will be watching them closely for treaty violations, and invade again if they break the terms. Either way, they are stuck in a very tough spot. Either give up on NATO membership, or continue a cycle of reinvasion.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      It is not about NATO membership. It is about Ukraine as an independent nation or not. And it doesn't seem likely that Russia will win on that front. There will be terrible loss of human lives and it will all be Putin's fault.

by NoPie 5y ago

s1artibartfast 5y ago

>It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. We agree, it would be good for Ukraine if it was in NATO, but they aren't. War wouldn't have happened if they were, but they aren't. >You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done? Because it looks like it is happening right now, and we will see if Ukraine promises to stay neutral. >The purpose of war is to conquer another country. War has lots of purposes. You can conquer a country, you can destabilize a country, you can make them submit to terms.

NoPie 5y ago
Ukrainians are not going to stay neutral. They will never submit. Sorry, but that is only Putin's fantasy and ultimately his downfall.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Perhaps you are right, and they will go back on any treaty they make with Russia. I suspect the government will almost certainly submit in the short term. In the long term, Russia will be watching them closely for treaty violations, and invade again if they break the terms. Either way, they are stuck in a very tough spot. Either give up on NATO membership, or continue a cycle of reinvasion.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    It is not about NATO membership. It is about Ukraine as an independent nation or not. And it doesn't seem likely that Russia will win on that front. There will be terrible loss of human lives and it will all be Putin's fault.