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That would imply that those in power are trying to appease the Russian dictator, extremely sad if true... Also seems that Biden has waved Trumps opposition to

That would imply that those in power are trying to appease the Russian dictator, extremely sad if true... Also seems that Biden has waved Trumps opposition to that pipeline, prior to that war, which is kind of confusing.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
No, everyone just wanted to have their cake and eat it too. NATO wanted forward airbases and missile sites in Ukraine and the EU also wanted cheap gas. Turns out nobody is surprised that you can't have both
- MichaelMoser123 5y ago
  " NATO wanted forward airbases and missile sites in Ukraine" The issue of Nato memberships for Ukraine was not on the agenda in recent times, as far as I know. This war could not have happened if Ukraine were part of NATO.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    It has been a major topic of debate an open communication in recent times. I recommend reading through this whole article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations Some highlights: >On 12 June 2020, Ukraine joined NATO's enhanced opportunity partner interoperability program >On 14 September 2020, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, "which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO." >On April 10, 2021, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Andrii Taran stated that the top priority of the Ukrainian political leadership is to obtain the Action Plan for Membership (MAP) in the North Atlantic Alliance in 2021. >At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) >On 28 June 2021, Ukraine and NATO forces launched joint naval drills in the Black Sea codenamed Sea Breeze 2021. Russia had condemned the drills, with the Russian Defence Ministry saying it would closely monitor them >On January 11, 2022, it became known that a group of [US] Republican congressmen propose a bill declaring Ukraine a NATO-plus country and initiating a review of the advisability of declaring Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. The authors of the bill argue that recognizing Ukraine as a "NATO+ country" will make it possible to quickly make decisions on the provision and sale of American defense goods and services to Ukraine. >On January 12, 2022, a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council was held in Brussels, where representatives of Russia and 30 member states of the Alliance discussed the requirements of the Russian side to NATO. Jens Stoltenberg [NATO] again stated that the decision on Ukraine's readiness to join NATO can only be made by Ukraine and 30 allies in the Alliance >On January 13, 2022, Russia's permanent representative to the OSCE, Alexander Lukashevich, stated that the Russian Federation would be forced to take measures to "eliminate unacceptable threats to national security" if it did not hear a constructive response to its security proposals within a reasonable time >On January 13, 2022, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said at his annual foreign policy press conference that Moscow "has run out of patience" waiting for the West's response to the Kremlin's demands for "security guarantees", and therefore Russia is waiting for a written response within a week. Lavrov said the Kremlin would not wait "indefinitely" for a Western response to Moscow's demands that NATO not expand eastward and deploy troops in Ukraine and other countries of the former Soviet Union. >On January 19, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov made a proposal to the United States to assume legal obligations not to vote for NATO membership of countries whose membership is opposed by the Russian Federation, reducing NATO's non-enlargement requirements. The Kremlin is ready to exchange such an "offer" for the conditions that were put forward earlier - the so-called guarantees of the non-expansion of the Alliance to the east. >On 22 February 2022 Russia recognized the rebel republics of Donbas, sending its army in the region; finally, on 24 February 2022 Russia launches a large-scale invasion of Ukraine.
    - MichaelMoser123 5y ago
      lots of words, they were declaring this intention since 2008 with a break between 2010-2014, during the presidency of Yanukovych. This request was never granted/never under serious consideration, due to obvious reasons. You are shilling for the Russian dictator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Ukraine
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Im not shilling for anyone, and I don't like war as much as the next guy. Is there a part of the article that you specifically found to be incorrect? It seems clear and indisputable that Ukraine and NATO drawing closer since 2014. They started conducting joint exercises, arms shipments and donations, and Ukraine updated it's governance to clearly declare intentions to join NATO. Here is another source for reference, unless you think they are shills too. https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nato-summit-triumph-or-defeat-for-ukraine/ https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nat...
        NoPie 5y ago
        NATO is a red herring. Of course, Ukrainians want protection from Russia but NATO is just the means, not the goal by itself. It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. But it is not relevant now. You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. The purpose of war is to conquer another country.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        >It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. We agree, it would be good for Ukraine if it was in NATO, but they aren't. War wouldn't have happened if they were, but they aren't. >You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done? Because it looks like it is happening right now, and we will see if Ukraine promises to stay neutral. >The purpose of war is to conquer another country. War has lots of purposes. You can conquer a country, you can destabilize a country, you can make them submit to terms.

s1artibartfast 5y ago

No, everyone just wanted to have their cake and eat it too. NATO wanted forward airbases and missile sites in Ukraine and the EU also wanted cheap gas. Turns out nobody is surprised that you can't have both

MichaelMoser123 5y ago
" NATO wanted forward airbases and missile sites in Ukraine" The issue of Nato memberships for Ukraine was not on the agenda in recent times, as far as I know. This war could not have happened if Ukraine were part of NATO.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  It has been a major topic of debate an open communication in recent times. I recommend reading through this whole article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations Some highlights: >On 12 June 2020, Ukraine joined NATO's enhanced opportunity partner interoperability program >On 14 September 2020, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky approved Ukraine's new National Security Strategy, "which provides for the development of the distinctive partnership with NATO with the aim of membership in NATO." >On April 10, 2021, the Minister of Defense of Ukraine Andrii Taran stated that the top priority of the Ukrainian political leadership is to obtain the Action Plan for Membership (MAP) in the North Atlantic Alliance in 2021. >At the June 2021 Brussels Summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the Membership Action Plan (MAP) >On 28 June 2021, Ukraine and NATO forces launched joint naval drills in the Black Sea codenamed Sea Breeze 2021. Russia had condemned the drills, with the Russian Defence Ministry saying it would closely monitor them >On January 11, 2022, it became known that a group of [US] Republican congressmen propose a bill declaring Ukraine a NATO-plus country and initiating a review of the advisability of declaring Russia a state sponsor of terrorism. The authors of the bill argue that recognizing Ukraine as a "NATO+ country" will make it possible to quickly make decisions on the provision and sale of American defense goods and services to Ukraine. >On January 12, 2022, a meeting of the Russia-NATO Council was held in Brussels, where representatives of Russia and 30 member states of the Alliance discussed the requirements of the Russian side to NATO. Jens Stoltenberg [NATO] again stated that the decision on Ukraine's readiness to join NATO can only be made by Ukraine and 30 allies in the Alliance >On January 13, 2022, Russia's permanent representative to the OSCE, Alexander Lukashevich, stated that the Russian Federation would be forced to take measures to "eliminate unacceptable threats to national security" if it did not hear a constructive response to its security proposals within a reasonable time >On January 13, 2022, Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said at his annual foreign policy press conference that Moscow "has run out of patience" waiting for the West's response to the Kremlin's demands for "security guarantees", and therefore Russia is waiting for a written response within a week. Lavrov said the Kremlin would not wait "indefinitely" for a Western response to Moscow's demands that NATO not expand eastward and deploy troops in Ukraine and other countries of the former Soviet Union. >On January 19, Russian Deputy Foreign Minister Sergei Ryabkov made a proposal to the United States to assume legal obligations not to vote for NATO membership of countries whose membership is opposed by the Russian Federation, reducing NATO's non-enlargement requirements. The Kremlin is ready to exchange such an "offer" for the conditions that were put forward earlier - the so-called guarantees of the non-expansion of the Alliance to the east. >On 22 February 2022 Russia recognized the rebel republics of Donbas, sending its army in the region; finally, on 24 February 2022 Russia launches a large-scale invasion of Ukraine.
  - MichaelMoser123 5y ago
    lots of words, they were declaring this intention since 2008 with a break between 2010-2014, during the presidency of Yanukovych. This request was never granted/never under serious consideration, due to obvious reasons. You are shilling for the Russian dictator. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Ukraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlargement_of_NATO#Ukraine
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      Im not shilling for anyone, and I don't like war as much as the next guy. Is there a part of the article that you specifically found to be incorrect? It seems clear and indisputable that Ukraine and NATO drawing closer since 2014. They started conducting joint exercises, arms shipments and donations, and Ukraine updated it's governance to clearly declare intentions to join NATO. Here is another source for reference, unless you think they are shills too. https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nato-summit-triumph-or-defeat-for-ukraine/ https://euromaidanpress.com/2021/06/15/the-2021-brussels-nat...
      - NoPie 5y ago
        NATO is a red herring. Of course, Ukrainians want protection from Russia but NATO is just the means, not the goal by itself. It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. But it is not relevant now. You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. The purpose of war is to conquer another country.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        >It makes all sense for Ukraine to join NATO just like the Baltic countries did. There would be no war if Ukraine was in NATO. We agree, it would be good for Ukraine if it was in NATO, but they aren't. War wouldn't have happened if they were, but they aren't. >You don't start a war to convince another country to not join NATO. Are you saying it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done? Because it looks like it is happening right now, and we will see if Ukraine promises to stay neutral. >The purpose of war is to conquer another country. War has lots of purposes. You can conquer a country, you can destabilize a country, you can make them submit to terms.