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For many it would mean losing heating and electricity. And while many say they are ready for such hardships, what if one has children or elderly parents they ne

by NoPie 5y ago

For many it would mean losing heating and electricity. And while many say they are ready for such hardships, what if one has children or elderly parents they need to take care of? Loss of electricity would also mean public transportation or factories grind to halt. And it doesn't even solve the immediate problem with active battles on the ground. There is only one real immediate solution – which is providing military help to Ukraine.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
No, NATO will never put boots on the ground in Ukraine. That leaves only one immediate solution - Which is Ukraine and Russia come to the table, and Ukraine promises to never join NATO. >In his night speech, Zelenskyy also hinted that he was ready to drop Ukraine’s push for NATO membership and maintain neutral status.[1] >Russia previously said it was open to negotiating with Ukraine, though the potential settlement Russian President Vladimir Putin outlined came with a number of ultimatums attached.[2] >Putin articulated his ultimatums for Kyiv:[3] - Recognize Crimea as Russian - Rejection of NATO accession - No weapons supplies from the West - LNR and DNR gain territory that the regions had pre 2014 https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-to-surrender-ready-to-discuss-neutrality-says-volodymyr-zelenskyy-after-suffering-losses-on-day-1-of-russian-invasion-10407741.html https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-to-surrender-ready-t... https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010654/ukraine-and-russia-are-seeking-a-time-and-place-to-meet-for https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010654/ukraine-and-... https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1497225449755263009 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1497225449755263009
- NoPie 5y ago
  No, it will not work because too many Ukrainians will continue fighting against Russians regardless what Zelensky says right now. He might be even killed by Russians any moment now.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    I'm not sure what you are claiming. That Ukrainian militia would follow the Russians back to Russia after Zelensky negotiates a deal? I get that it isn't very emotionally satisfying to give in, but concessions would save countless lives and his country from an unwinnable war.
    - NoPie 5y ago
      What does it mean to win a war? Russia can conquer a Ukrainian army but people simply won't accept a Russian government that easily. A genocide-like repressions, similar to golodamor, will be required. It can be averted or the world can simply sit and watch it unfold.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        >What does it mean to win a war? It means to live in peace and stability, free of foreign control. I think that Ukraine does not have the military strength to achieve this through conflict with Russia, therefore it is militarily unwinnable. >Russia can conquer a Ukrainian army but people simply won't accept a Russian government that easily. I completely agree! I don't think Russia wants to govern all of Ukraine. They want to destroy it's military, make it promise to stay away from NATO, and grant independence to Crimea and the Russian puppet states in the east.
        NoPie 5y ago
        They already have that. The war is not about that. Russia winning this war will not mean peace and stability, free of foreign control to Ukrainians.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        They already have what? I think you are putting words in my mouth. I never said it would be good for Ukrainians if Russia won, or that Russia even can win. I just said there isn't a realistic outcome where Ukraine wins via military might.

by NoPie 5y ago

s1artibartfast 5y ago

No, NATO will never put boots on the ground in Ukraine. That leaves only one immediate solution - Which is Ukraine and Russia come to the table, and Ukraine promises to never join NATO. >In his night speech, Zelenskyy also hinted that he was ready to drop Ukraine’s push for NATO membership and maintain neutral status.[1] >Russia previously said it was open to negotiating with Ukraine, though the potential settlement Russian President Vladimir Putin outlined came with a number of ultimatums attached.[2] >Putin articulated his ultimatums for Kyiv:[3] - Recognize Crimea as Russian - Rejection of NATO accession - No weapons supplies from the West - LNR and DNR gain territory that the regions had pre 2014 https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-to-surrender-ready-to-discuss-neutrality-says-volodymyr-zelenskyy-after-suffering-losses-on-day-1-of-russian-invasion-10407741.html https://www.firstpost.com/world/ukraine-to-surrender-ready-t... https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010654/ukraine-and-russia-are-seeking-a-time-and-place-to-meet-for https://theweek.com/russo-ukrainian-war/1010654/ukraine-and-... https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1497225449755263009 https://twitter.com/DAlperovitch/status/1497225449755263009

NoPie 5y ago
No, it will not work because too many Ukrainians will continue fighting against Russians regardless what Zelensky says right now. He might be even killed by Russians any moment now.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  I'm not sure what you are claiming. That Ukrainian militia would follow the Russians back to Russia after Zelensky negotiates a deal? I get that it isn't very emotionally satisfying to give in, but concessions would save countless lives and his country from an unwinnable war.
  - NoPie 5y ago
    What does it mean to win a war? Russia can conquer a Ukrainian army but people simply won't accept a Russian government that easily. A genocide-like repressions, similar to golodamor, will be required. It can be averted or the world can simply sit and watch it unfold.
    - s1artibartfast 5y ago
      >What does it mean to win a war? It means to live in peace and stability, free of foreign control. I think that Ukraine does not have the military strength to achieve this through conflict with Russia, therefore it is militarily unwinnable. >Russia can conquer a Ukrainian army but people simply won't accept a Russian government that easily. I completely agree! I don't think Russia wants to govern all of Ukraine. They want to destroy it's military, make it promise to stay away from NATO, and grant independence to Crimea and the Russian puppet states in the east.
      - NoPie 5y ago
        They already have that. The war is not about that. Russia winning this war will not mean peace and stability, free of foreign control to Ukrainians.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        They already have what? I think you are putting words in my mouth. I never said it would be good for Ukrainians if Russia won, or that Russia even can win. I just said there isn't a realistic outcome where Ukraine wins via military might.