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>> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? I feel bad for people in Russia who don't want that war either, sanctions will hurt. But: 1. S

>> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? I feel bad for people in Russia who don't want that war either, sanctions will hurt. But: 1. Sanctions are a way to exert pressure and say "don't DO that". They're supposed to hurt. The other effective way to send that message is to use actual force. I'm sure people of Russia would prefer that less. 2. As a kid from Sarajevo, I feel Ukrainan's pain a LOT more today than yours, because they ARE being shelled and bombed and besieged and starved. You are not. Count your lucky stars. 3. As others pointed, there are choices. At this point, mostly shitty choices, all around, for all involved. I for one ran the fuck away from that part of the world. That was a personal, selfish choice (well, in reality, made by my parents, but I sure as heck supported them). Others protest secretly. Others, braver and less selfish and more idealistic, protest loudly. Yet others take up arms. Much as Canadians let alone world like to find things to complain about US (often validly), they did hash these things in a rebellion and a Civil war and again in the violent protests of the 70's... and they seem poised to be hashing them out violently again. Point being, it's not easy ANYwhere to get things even remotely right or fair or just or peaceful. I'm not selfless enough to die fighting a government; but I recognize it is an option and a choice. So what I'm saying is, today, people of Russia are not at top of my personal priority list of people to feel sorry for. You're not absent from it, but everything is a limited resource. Sorry :-/

int_19h 5y ago
Sanctions that hurt the general populace are not an "effective message" for the simple reason that said general populace is not in charge of "DOING that".
- NikolaNovak 5y ago
  My statement (about sanctions being a message or behaviour modifier) is no more of an oversimplification than yours (about populace not being in charge / not being able to modify their country's behaviour) At any rate, if we want to engage in a productive discussion, let us enumerate alternatives and rank them. I'll start * Sanctions * Military Engagement * Assassination * Covert policy, government, elections influence What other means does the world have to say "please don't do that"? Which are preferred over / should come before sanctions, and why? I don't mean this to sound antagonistic. I'm tremendously frustrated because I agree sanctions are weak, mis-targeted and won't drive sufficient change fast enough. But while I can rail against them, I don't genuinely know what else is left on the plate. One participant is acting like a violent bully. At that point, once discussion/education/negotiation has failed, there's really no good options for anybody left.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    It's not that the sanctions don't drive change fast enough - it's that they don't drive them, period. The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again. The US aid package just announced includes security aid that is a sizable fraction of Ukraine's annual defense spending, on top of preexisting direct security aid. And the US isn't alone. Sanctions aren't the only response.
    - NikolaNovak 5y ago
      Many countries, including Canada, are sending military equipment or financial support to Ukraine. Its not an either / or proposition. If however by direct military aid you mean soldiers on the ground fighting Russians, then a) I agree that would be more effective and b) I think it's unlikely to happen because c) if we engage in second order thinking, I don't see how it ends well for anyone in the short term. That's the problem with a Bully, they don't care about their own pain as much as other guys care about theirs. Once they start hitting, there are no great options. All options from here on suck.
      - int_19h 5y ago
        Once the bully starts hitting, the only option that actually solves the problem long term is everybody hitting back. Because you'll end up fighting the bully anyway sooner or later. But if it's later, there will be fewer left standing by your side.
        NikolaNovak 5y ago
        I don't disagree. The problem is 1. This Bully has nuclear weapons 2. This Bully has historically shown they are willing and able to take more pain for their cause.

int_19h 5y ago

Sanctions that hurt the general populace are not an "effective message" for the simple reason that said general populace is not in charge of "DOING that".

NikolaNovak 5y ago
My statement (about sanctions being a message or behaviour modifier) is no more of an oversimplification than yours (about populace not being in charge / not being able to modify their country's behaviour) At any rate, if we want to engage in a productive discussion, let us enumerate alternatives and rank them. I'll start * Sanctions * Military Engagement * Assassination * Covert policy, government, elections influence What other means does the world have to say "please don't do that"? Which are preferred over / should come before sanctions, and why? I don't mean this to sound antagonistic. I'm tremendously frustrated because I agree sanctions are weak, mis-targeted and won't drive sufficient change fast enough. But while I can rail against them, I don't genuinely know what else is left on the plate. One participant is acting like a violent bully. At that point, once discussion/education/negotiation has failed, there's really no good options for anybody left.
- int_19h 5y ago
  It's not that the sanctions don't drive change fast enough - it's that they don't drive them, period. The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The only effective counter to Russia right now is direct military aid to Ukraine. But the rest of the world has chosen to re-enact 1938 all over again. The US aid package just announced includes security aid that is a sizable fraction of Ukraine's annual defense spending, on top of preexisting direct security aid. And the US isn't alone. Sanctions aren't the only response.
  - NikolaNovak 5y ago
    Many countries, including Canada, are sending military equipment or financial support to Ukraine. Its not an either / or proposition. If however by direct military aid you mean soldiers on the ground fighting Russians, then a) I agree that would be more effective and b) I think it's unlikely to happen because c) if we engage in second order thinking, I don't see how it ends well for anyone in the short term. That's the problem with a Bully, they don't care about their own pain as much as other guys care about theirs. Once they start hitting, there are no great options. All options from here on suck.
    - int_19h 5y ago
      Once the bully starts hitting, the only option that actually solves the problem long term is everybody hitting back. Because you'll end up fighting the bully anyway sooner or later. But if it's later, there will be fewer left standing by your side.
      - NikolaNovak 5y ago
        I don't disagree. The problem is 1. This Bully has nuclear weapons 2. This Bully has historically shown they are willing and able to take more pain for their cause.