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> wasn’t even able to psychologically subvert the Ukranians Well, not all of them, but the there were enough separatists in Crimea and Donetsk, etc. to destabi

> wasn’t even able to psychologically subvert the Ukranians Well, not all of them, but the there were enough separatists in Crimea and Donetsk, etc. to destabilize those regions. Were those separatists psychologically subverted, or did they just happen to want to re-join Russia? They don't have to subvert all of America, just enough of a subvertable multitude to destabilize things.

avgcorrection 5y ago
> Well, not all of them, but the there were enough separatists in Crimea First of all, us Westerners have already questioned how democratic the supposed cessation from Ukraine was. So let’s not get selective now. Russia already had their military stationed their. That could have a chilling effect. Second of all, plenty of people in Crimea speak Russian. And a lot of the Crimean Tatars were forcefully deported under the Soviet Union. I just bring that up since forceful deportation is not exactly, uh, the tool of a governing party that feels that they can just manipulate their subjects into becoming… whatever the Soviet Union wanted them to become. > ... and Donetsk, etc. to destabilize those regions. In your quote you left out the rest of the paragraph where I addressed the separatists. Even if we assume—and this is an insane hypothetical for the sake of this specific argument—that all those separatists were hypnotized by Russia, that’s still a very lackluster result considering that the majority of Ukraine is pro-Western right now. I mean they did commit to an all out war with them. So much for subversion. But let’s entertain this point for one more paragraph. The separatist conflict started after the 2014 coup which America supported.[1] So the separatist sentiment was in part caused by America trying to subvert the political process of Ukraine (and kind of openly, too). That’s in a way more impressive than Russian subversion considering how far away the US is. [1] Page 4, https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t... > Were those separatists psychologically subverted, or did they just happen to want to re-join Russia? This feels like a rhetorical question where one of the alternatives is the obvious answer. In case it is the former which is “correct”: it is quite common for peoples and ethnicities to not live neatly in each of their own little nation state. 25% of Latvia, for example, consists of ethnic Russians. Finland has a Swedish-speaking minority. You have Transnistria in Moldova. So what makes an ethnic/cultural separatist region at all weird or unusual? Especially when a major power is willing to unofficially help them out for eight years...
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  > questioned how democratic the supposed cessation from Ukraine was That’s… the point I was making…
  - avgcorrection 5y ago
    Due to the military presence. Not due to some mind-hack nonense. Does Russia have a military presence in the US? It does not and it never will.

avgcorrection 5y ago

> Well, not all of them, but the there were enough separatists in Crimea First of all, us Westerners have already questioned how democratic the supposed cessation from Ukraine was. So let’s not get selective now. Russia already had their military stationed their. That could have a chilling effect. Second of all, plenty of people in Crimea speak Russian. And a lot of the Crimean Tatars were forcefully deported under the Soviet Union. I just bring that up since forceful deportation is not exactly, uh, the tool of a governing party that feels that they can just manipulate their subjects into becoming… whatever the Soviet Union wanted them to become. > ... and Donetsk, etc. to destabilize those regions. In your quote you left out the rest of the paragraph where I addressed the separatists. Even if we assume—and this is an insane hypothetical for the sake of this specific argument—that all those separatists were hypnotized by Russia, that’s still a very lackluster result considering that the majority of Ukraine is pro-Western right now. I mean they did commit to an all out war with them. So much for subversion. But let’s entertain this point for one more paragraph. The separatist conflict started after the 2014 coup which America supported.[1] So the separatist sentiment was in part caused by America trying to subvert the political process of Ukraine (and kind of openly, too). That’s in a way more impressive than Russian subversion considering how far away the US is. [1] Page 4, https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-t... > Were those separatists psychologically subverted, or did they just happen to want to re-join Russia? This feels like a rhetorical question where one of the alternatives is the obvious answer. In case it is the former which is “correct”: it is quite common for peoples and ethnicities to not live neatly in each of their own little nation state. 25% of Latvia, for example, consists of ethnic Russians. Finland has a Swedish-speaking minority. You have Transnistria in Moldova. So what makes an ethnic/cultural separatist region at all weird or unusual? Especially when a major power is willing to unofficially help them out for eight years...

commandlinefan 5y ago
> questioned how democratic the supposed cessation from Ukraine was That’s… the point I was making…
- avgcorrection 5y ago
  Due to the military presence. Not due to some mind-hack nonense. Does Russia have a military presence in the US? It does not and it never will.