4 ms·

Just vote harder guys, and make pithy signs. Protests don't even work in the west, how can they work in Russia?

by willcipriano 5y ago

jacquesm 5y ago
Protests work: if they are large enough.
- willcipriano 5y ago
  That's sort of a no true scottsman. Occupy wall street resulted in nothing, BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect, massive anti war protests in the early 2000's resulted in a couple decades of war. What ones recently were big enough? Million man march? That was just LBJ buying votes if you ask him about it privately.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    None of those resulted in crippling the country, which is the level you need. Without Russia propping him up Lukashenko would be out by now. Think Solidarity, not BLM and get the whole country to grind to a halt. That will make a difference. By the time the police and the army have to decide if they want to open fire on their family it can be won. But for that to happen something major will have to change in Russia first.
    - willcipriano 5y ago
      In Canada they just had protests that crippled the country, they just took food and the ability to bank or heat themselves from the protestors until they gave up. No change. Imagine if Trudeau had a gulag.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        That was a few hundred people at best. Anyway, I can see that you believe strongly that protests don't work, I've been eyewitness to protests that did work and that changed the direction of a country (in fact, multiple countries) in a massive way. Those instances are rare, but that's an existence proof that you can't deny (and there are, historically, more examples). Note that the support for those Canadian protests amongst ordinary Canadians was minimal.
        mardifoufs 5y ago
        I'd assume support for those anti war protests in a time of war is probably lower than the support for the truckers in canada (which wasn't that low, 30-40% of the population). Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? Especially since appearing to undermine a war effort is usually universally despised once a war starts. Even the iraq war started with 90% of americans rallying behind bush and supported the war, so the legitimacy of the war itself does not seem to matter a lot.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        > Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? According to the Russian authorities, yes. According to me: those people are real heroes, right now it is far more dangerous to join such protests than when the numbers are higher, especially in places like Russia.
      - osigurdson 5y ago
        Virtually every Canadian province has dropped vaccine passports or is in the process of doing so. This was not the case before the protests began. While it's possible that this would have happened anyway (and not even the purview of the federal government), it seems likely that protests accelerated things. Of course, I'm not sure there are many parallels here to the situation in Russia/Ukraine.
  - myko 5y ago
    protests worked in russia in 1917
    - paulryanrogers 5y ago
      Wasn't it an armed uprising?
      - myko 5y ago
        Unless I'm misunderstanding the request here that is what folks are truly asking the Russian population to do. Someone must physically cast Putin down within Russia itself. I agree peaceful protests inside the country will not work.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force. Whether that's a lasting effect is, of course, too soon to say, but it's not to be casually dismissed as you have.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      > Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force. Especially by law enforcement, or only by law enforcement? Criminal homicide of blacks is way up since BLM.
gutitout 5y ago
This incredible high brow view is a stain on what is happening in Russia. I’m in America and I am not at all surprised that our private company’s are in the pocket of our government interests, once again. This would feel like ANOTHER provocation, if you are a Russian official. I wonder if we will see Americans realize that (at least in part) this Russian aggression is a retaliation to how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motives. To be clear, against all war and what is happening in Russia is also equally unacceptable.
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  > ...how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motive. Please excuse my ignorance but how did the US and EU put the UA people in danger?
  - gutitout 5y ago
    I want to preface this by saying that I 100% disagree with the war in Ukraine and the Russian infiltration and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. Also, please feel free to correct me or argue these points! A few ways: 1. NATO is largely an anti-Russian coalition. With many of its boarder neighboring countries being part of it. You can google the map and you will see the strategic position of those countries. In the West, only Belarus and Ukraine have not been added to this list of Russian neighboring countries. The USA & EU has been running military drills at those locations for many decades in an act of intimidation. 2. Sanctions are effecting mostly the everyday people of Russia. This is gathering more support internally for Putin’s aggression. 3. The Ukraine has a major movement toward the west in the last decade. Making Ukraine NATO would be another enemy at the boarder and this would be unfavorable for the Russian’s. Again provoking conflict in the region. 4. There has been no attempt by the USA to work with Putin or the Russian officials. Even using Russia as a scapegoat for the Wikileaks dump in 2016. And of course so, so much more anti Russian sentiment in our media ahead of this. 5. Biden and his sons involvement in the Ukraine (as reported on in 2020 by some of the US media) shows the constant strain that the Ukrainians are under. A pawn between the USA and Russia. Open to thoughts and opinions by everyone!

Just vote harder guys, and make pithy signs. Protests don't even work in the west, how can they work in Russia?

jacquesm 5y ago

Protests work: if they are large enough.

willcipriano 5y ago
That's sort of a no true scottsman. Occupy wall street resulted in nothing, BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect, massive anti war protests in the early 2000's resulted in a couple decades of war. What ones recently were big enough? Million man march? That was just LBJ buying votes if you ask him about it privately.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  None of those resulted in crippling the country, which is the level you need. Without Russia propping him up Lukashenko would be out by now. Think Solidarity, not BLM and get the whole country to grind to a halt. That will make a difference. By the time the police and the army have to decide if they want to open fire on their family it can be won. But for that to happen something major will have to change in Russia first.
  - willcipriano 5y ago
    In Canada they just had protests that crippled the country, they just took food and the ability to bank or heat themselves from the protestors until they gave up. No change. Imagine if Trudeau had a gulag.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      That was a few hundred people at best. Anyway, I can see that you believe strongly that protests don't work, I've been eyewitness to protests that did work and that changed the direction of a country (in fact, multiple countries) in a massive way. Those instances are rare, but that's an existence proof that you can't deny (and there are, historically, more examples). Note that the support for those Canadian protests amongst ordinary Canadians was minimal.
      - mardifoufs 5y ago
        I'd assume support for those anti war protests in a time of war is probably lower than the support for the truckers in canada (which wasn't that low, 30-40% of the population). Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? Especially since appearing to undermine a war effort is usually universally despised once a war starts. Even the iraq war started with 90% of americans rallying behind bush and supported the war, so the legitimacy of the war itself does not seem to matter a lot.
        jacquesm 5y ago
        > Does that make anti war protests in russia illegitimate ? According to the Russian authorities, yes. According to me: those people are real heroes, right now it is far more dangerous to join such protests than when the numbers are higher, especially in places like Russia.
    - osigurdson 5y ago
      Virtually every Canadian province has dropped vaccine passports or is in the process of doing so. This was not the case before the protests began. While it's possible that this would have happened anyway (and not even the purview of the federal government), it seems likely that protests accelerated things. Of course, I'm not sure there are many parallels here to the situation in Russia/Ukraine.
- myko 5y ago
  protests worked in russia in 1917
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    Wasn't it an armed uprising?
    - myko 5y ago
      Unless I'm misunderstanding the request here that is what folks are truly asking the Russian population to do. Someone must physically cast Putin down within Russia itself. I agree peaceful protests inside the country will not work.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > BLM protests were huge to no lasting effect Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force. Whether that's a lasting effect is, of course, too soon to say, but it's not to be casually dismissed as you have.
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > Accountability for criminal homicide of Black people, especially by law enforcement, has definitely increased since BLM became a force. Especially by law enforcement, or only by law enforcement? Criminal homicide of blacks is way up since BLM.

gutitout 5y ago

This incredible high brow view is a stain on what is happening in Russia. I’m in America and I am not at all surprised that our private company’s are in the pocket of our government interests, once again. This would feel like ANOTHER provocation, if you are a Russian official. I wonder if we will see Americans realize that (at least in part) this Russian aggression is a retaliation to how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motives. To be clear, against all war and what is happening in Russia is also equally unacceptable.

paulryanrogers 5y ago
> ...how the USA / EU policies have put the Ukrainian people in incredible danger for their own political motive. Please excuse my ignorance but how did the US and EU put the UA people in danger?
- gutitout 5y ago
  I want to preface this by saying that I 100% disagree with the war in Ukraine and the Russian infiltration and my heart goes out to the Ukrainian people. Also, please feel free to correct me or argue these points! A few ways: 1. NATO is largely an anti-Russian coalition. With many of its boarder neighboring countries being part of it. You can google the map and you will see the strategic position of those countries. In the West, only Belarus and Ukraine have not been added to this list of Russian neighboring countries. The USA & EU has been running military drills at those locations for many decades in an act of intimidation. 2. Sanctions are effecting mostly the everyday people of Russia. This is gathering more support internally for Putin’s aggression. 3. The Ukraine has a major movement toward the west in the last decade. Making Ukraine NATO would be another enemy at the boarder and this would be unfavorable for the Russian’s. Again provoking conflict in the region. 4. There has been no attempt by the USA to work with Putin or the Russian officials. Even using Russia as a scapegoat for the Wikileaks dump in 2016. And of course so, so much more anti Russian sentiment in our media ahead of this. 5. Biden and his sons involvement in the Ukraine (as reported on in 2020 by some of the US media) shows the constant strain that the Ukrainians are under. A pawn between the USA and Russia. Open to thoughts and opinions by everyone!