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> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. Every person can. That's why

> Why do you think that we all should feel pain of sanctions? Because we are not able to stand against gov? Well, we are not able. Every person can. That's why sanctions exist: to incentivize a government to focus on its people and isolate a violent government from the world, or conversely, for a people to hold their government accountable. What would you propose the world do instead of sanctions when diplomacy alone has clearly failed?

coward-guy 5y ago
It's too late... Where were US and Europe with their sanctions when riots on Bolotnaya square happened? https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolotnaya_Square_case https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolotnaya_Square_case When Navalny was incarcerated? Do you think it is easy to stay against government with army? Look at Ukraine, there's the same Russian army there.
tehjoker 5y ago
Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. My preferred resolution would be NATO backing off and agreeing to Ukraine as a neutral buffer state with Russia withdrawing troops. The American foreign policy instinct is always for unrelenting brutality.
- Jcowell 5y ago
  Yes YOUR preferred resolution The people of Ukraine however would probably approve of the sanctions as the ongoing conflict persists.
- eganist 5y ago
  > Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. There's nuance that you're missing (e.g UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state), and your broad interpretation doesn't align with accepted practice. A relevant analysis: https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-international-law https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-inter...
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state The UN has had a structure for dealing with veto-power obstructionism since 1950. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_377 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem...
int_19h 5y ago
Did sanctions ever achieve this? If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Did sanctions ever achieve this? Governments have changed behavior after sanctions regimes were put in place. The degree and mechanisms of any causal relationship are infinitely debatable, because it's near impossible to falsify them conclusively. > If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures. The government of Ukraine, who is both better positioned to evaluate the value of interventions and whose leaders have quite a bit personally at stake, doesn't seem to have this attitude of “intervene militarily or fuck off”, and has indeed been calling for sanctions and specific enhancements to them.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    The only clear case I can think of is South Africa, but even that had its own internal movement; sanctions merely sped things up. Besides, Russia knew of all the possible sanctions way in advance, and proceeded to invade anyway - which already tells you how much the government there is worried about them in practice. Biden is absolutely correct: sanctions couldn't and won't prevent anything. What he's not saying, but what follows directly, is that military force is the only option that'll work.

coward-guy 5y ago

It's too late... Where were US and Europe with their sanctions when riots on Bolotnaya square happened? https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolotnaya_Square_case https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Bolotnaya_Square_case When Navalny was incarcerated? Do you think it is easy to stay against government with army? Look at Ukraine, there's the same Russian army there.

tehjoker 5y ago

Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. My preferred resolution would be NATO backing off and agreeing to Ukraine as a neutral buffer state with Russia withdrawing troops. The American foreign policy instinct is always for unrelenting brutality.

Jcowell 5y ago
Yes YOUR preferred resolution The people of Ukraine however would probably approve of the sanctions as the ongoing conflict persists.
eganist 5y ago
> Collective punishment is against the laws of war and the UN charter. There's nuance that you're missing (e.g UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state), and your broad interpretation doesn't align with accepted practice. A relevant analysis: https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-international-law https://www.epw.in/engage/article/do-sanctions-violate-inter...
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > UN not empowered to sanction war crimes by a veto-power state The UN has had a structure for dealing with veto-power obstructionism since 1950. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assembly_Resolution_377 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_General_Assem...

int_19h 5y ago

Did sanctions ever achieve this? If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Did sanctions ever achieve this? Governments have changed behavior after sanctions regimes were put in place. The degree and mechanisms of any causal relationship are infinitely debatable, because it's near impossible to falsify them conclusively. > If the West actually wants to defend Ukraine, it needs to intervene militarily. If it doesn't, then it shouldn't try to placate its conscience with meaningless token gestures. The government of Ukraine, who is both better positioned to evaluate the value of interventions and whose leaders have quite a bit personally at stake, doesn't seem to have this attitude of “intervene militarily or fuck off”, and has indeed been calling for sanctions and specific enhancements to them.
- int_19h 5y ago
  The only clear case I can think of is South Africa, but even that had its own internal movement; sanctions merely sped things up. Besides, Russia knew of all the possible sanctions way in advance, and proceeded to invade anyway - which already tells you how much the government there is worried about them in practice. Biden is absolutely correct: sanctions couldn't and won't prevent anything. What he's not saying, but what follows directly, is that military force is the only option that'll work.