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I don't care about NATO. I'm talking about what my country alone, the USA, must now do. We can't allow anyone to use MAD as an excuse to march into a sovereign

I don't care about NATO. I'm talking about what my country alone, the USA, must now do. We can't allow anyone to use MAD as an excuse to march into a sovereign nation, anywhere on Earth. The US has to do the right thing now, and defend Ukraine before it falls. This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia. Going tit for tat on details of NATO and hand-wringing as I take it you are doing, is a point we are far beyond now. It's something I'd expect from a bureaucrat. Vladimir Putin is an evil man, that must be recognized and his soldiers have to be met on the battlefield today. They have to be repelled, and Putin brought to his knees, or we're going to be in a much larger mess down the road. "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"

dragontamer 5y ago
But we aren't doing nothing. USA is 100% employing the old "Arsenal of Democracy" strategy. We're shipping huge amounts of weapons over to Ukraine. Just last January, we sent something like $200-million in weapons (largely Javelin missiles, which are clearly blowing up Russian tanks in pretty good numbers). That's January alone. There's different steps and different grades to the aid we can give to other countries. We shouldn't reach for the most extreme action immediately, we need to choose the right level of "Grayness", the right level of aid for each situation. Ukraine is in luck: Poland is an immediate neighbor to the west and Poland is a NATO ally. That means we actually have a physical ability to bring in those weapon supplies, and a logical basis to base our operations out of. ------- > This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia. If we put this on WW2 terms: USA only started sending military equipment to UK after France fell. For us to already be openly arming a nominally neutral party like Ukraine is already a steep escalation in terms of historical terms. USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France. The "Arsenal of Democracy" speech by Roosevelt wasn't until December 1940, months AFTER the fall of France.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  It's just my opinion based on what I know. I hope whatever is done, whether it's my viewpoint or yours, is the correct one. There is likely no right answer here, just degrees of success and it depends how many innocent Ukrainians you're prepared to let die (and the citizens of the next nation on Putin's list). I'm praying for President Biden so he may make the right decision. So far, I'm dismayed. It does sound like we both want success for Ukraine here. I just don't believe that anything but full-on measures will be enough. I think it's wishful thinking. Putin is clearly the bully at school that you either punched in the nose, or you didn't. If you didn't, you're likely still getting bullied to this day. They prey on weakness. The west is weak, and this is our moment to put our money where our mouth is on defending freedom. >USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France. That's the problem. We already learned what happens next.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > That's the problem. We already learned what happens next. No. You missed the lesson. USA is largely a peaceful nation that's many thousands of miles away from this conflict. It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. The US people in 1939 or 1940 weren't ignorant. Even as Hitler rose and took over large swaths of Europe, the US citizen was not roused into action. It still took significant amounts of political pressure / propaganda to get people to agree with the Arsenal of Democracy approach after the fall of France. ------- EDIT: Those troubles are still with us today. We are still a nation very far away and seen as outsiders to the countries we visit. No one wants the USA to half-ass a war, that's how you get Afghanistan/Iraq/Vietnam. Rousing the people to action is an incredibly important part of sending troops. If the people don't support the actions, the troops fight with less morale and less justice in their hearts. The NATO process holds power. I do believe that if a NATO ally is attacked, the US people will rise up and truly move to defend our allies. You can't trigger that prematurely or artificially.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. Fair enough. Which is why the world stood with you after 9/11. And this is a far larger event.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        I'm not ignorant of the ISAF / Operation Enduring Freedom if that's what you're referencing. And I do think that's a good point you bring up.
    - BuckRogers 5y ago
      I'm more representative of the US today than the long gone population of 1939 is at this point. In 1939, the nation was weary of being involved with European wars, having just finished one 20 years prior. My family fought in both of them. My grandfather (RIP) had scars up and down his body from German gunfire. My great grandfather, who was a grandchild of Germany himself, fought in the French trenches before him. I'm a descendent of the people of 1939 USA, we did learn and we changed. I'm the product. Further, I think I am taking the lesson correctly. It's not about the "wisdom of the masses" (which I do not believe in) as you suggest, but rather doing the right thing as soon as possible. We made a mistake in 1939, I believe the people of the US today are a proud and noble people, unafraid of self-sacrifice and doing the right thing for humanity and world peace. Hitler nearly won. I've never seen a more worthy time to commit our lives to a cause than today, at least in the course of my life. This is a once in a lifetime calling of our conscience that we have to answer. We'll be answering it anyway, on less favorable terms later on.

dragontamer 5y ago

But we aren't doing nothing. USA is 100% employing the old "Arsenal of Democracy" strategy. We're shipping huge amounts of weapons over to Ukraine. Just last January, we sent something like $200-million in weapons (largely Javelin missiles, which are clearly blowing up Russian tanks in pretty good numbers). That's January alone. There's different steps and different grades to the aid we can give to other countries. We shouldn't reach for the most extreme action immediately, we need to choose the right level of "Grayness", the right level of aid for each situation. Ukraine is in luck: Poland is an immediate neighbor to the west and Poland is a NATO ally. That means we actually have a physical ability to bring in those weapon supplies, and a logical basis to base our operations out of. ------- > This is Hitler in Czechoslovakia. If we put this on WW2 terms: USA only started sending military equipment to UK after France fell. For us to already be openly arming a nominally neutral party like Ukraine is already a steep escalation in terms of historical terms. USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France. The "Arsenal of Democracy" speech by Roosevelt wasn't until December 1940, months AFTER the fall of France.

BuckRogers 5y ago
It's just my opinion based on what I know. I hope whatever is done, whether it's my viewpoint or yours, is the correct one. There is likely no right answer here, just degrees of success and it depends how many innocent Ukrainians you're prepared to let die (and the citizens of the next nation on Putin's list). I'm praying for President Biden so he may make the right decision. So far, I'm dismayed. It does sound like we both want success for Ukraine here. I just don't believe that anything but full-on measures will be enough. I think it's wishful thinking. Putin is clearly the bully at school that you either punched in the nose, or you didn't. If you didn't, you're likely still getting bullied to this day. They prey on weakness. The west is weak, and this is our moment to put our money where our mouth is on defending freedom. >USA originally did nothing as Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia, Austra, Poland, and even France. That's the problem. We already learned what happens next.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  > That's the problem. We already learned what happens next. No. You missed the lesson. USA is largely a peaceful nation that's many thousands of miles away from this conflict. It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. The US people in 1939 or 1940 weren't ignorant. Even as Hitler rose and took over large swaths of Europe, the US citizen was not roused into action. It still took significant amounts of political pressure / propaganda to get people to agree with the Arsenal of Democracy approach after the fall of France. ------- EDIT: Those troubles are still with us today. We are still a nation very far away and seen as outsiders to the countries we visit. No one wants the USA to half-ass a war, that's how you get Afghanistan/Iraq/Vietnam. Rousing the people to action is an incredibly important part of sending troops. If the people don't support the actions, the troops fight with less morale and less justice in their hearts. The NATO process holds power. I do believe that if a NATO ally is attacked, the US people will rise up and truly move to defend our allies. You can't trigger that prematurely or artificially.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > It takes an incredible amount of evil before the US people are roused into action. Fair enough. Which is why the world stood with you after 9/11. And this is a far larger event.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      I'm not ignorant of the ISAF / Operation Enduring Freedom if that's what you're referencing. And I do think that's a good point you bring up.
  - BuckRogers 5y ago
    I'm more representative of the US today than the long gone population of 1939 is at this point. In 1939, the nation was weary of being involved with European wars, having just finished one 20 years prior. My family fought in both of them. My grandfather (RIP) had scars up and down his body from German gunfire. My great grandfather, who was a grandchild of Germany himself, fought in the French trenches before him. I'm a descendent of the people of 1939 USA, we did learn and we changed. I'm the product. Further, I think I am taking the lesson correctly. It's not about the "wisdom of the masses" (which I do not believe in) as you suggest, but rather doing the right thing as soon as possible. We made a mistake in 1939, I believe the people of the US today are a proud and noble people, unafraid of self-sacrifice and doing the right thing for humanity and world peace. Hitler nearly won. I've never seen a more worthy time to commit our lives to a cause than today, at least in the course of my life. This is a once in a lifetime calling of our conscience that we have to answer. We'll be answering it anyway, on less favorable terms later on.