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Putin has been saying for the past decade that he would not tolerate further eastward expansion of NATO, a thoroughly anti-russian alliance. It is a reasonable

Putin has been saying for the past decade that he would not tolerate further eastward expansion of NATO, a thoroughly anti-russian alliance. It is a reasonable position. No, invading independent countries is not reasonable. One can hold both these thoughts in their head.

ceejayoz 5y ago
It's not a reasonable position. It's like me telling my next door neighbor they can't be friends with another neighbor. It's none of my business, and I'd be an asshole for demanding it. It also places Russia in direct violation of their own agreements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  You have to also consider that it involves more than just being friends, it also involves putting airbases, missiles, and possibly nukes pointing at your house.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    A) NATO has had nukes pointed at Moscow for half a century already, so that wouldn't be anything new. B) Ukraine isn't much closer to Moscow than Lithuania is (and hugely father away from Leningrad than Estonia is), so this seems irrelevant. What your neighbours and their friends put on their lawns is none of your business. If it's a lot of stuff usable for defending against arsehole neighbours, maybe in stead of attacking them you should think about what kind of a neighbour you are.
hnarn 5y ago
> It is a reasonable position. It is not. Russia does not have any say in what alliances other nations choose to join -- apart from the "last argument of kings" of course, and what's scary to me is that there are so many people like you around that seem to have this Clausewitz idea of war being "politics by other means" even in the present day. Your comment clearly makes excuses for Russia's actions, so no, in your case you are not keeping both of these thoughts in your head. Would you be so quick to defend the United States in the same manner if they had expressed concerns about Mexico's foreign policies for the past ten years? Or an invasion of an alternate-reality Cuba with a democratically elected government tomorrow?
tedivm 5y ago
Yeah but the fact that he invaded an independent country makes all of his other claims baseless. NATO didn't expand to Ukraine, he invaded anyways, so there is no point in appeasing him.

ceejayoz 5y ago

It's not a reasonable position. It's like me telling my next door neighbor they can't be friends with another neighbor. It's none of my business, and I'd be an asshole for demanding it. It also places Russia in direct violation of their own agreements. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Securit...

s1artibartfast 5y ago
You have to also consider that it involves more than just being friends, it also involves putting airbases, missiles, and possibly nukes pointing at your house.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  A) NATO has had nukes pointed at Moscow for half a century already, so that wouldn't be anything new. B) Ukraine isn't much closer to Moscow than Lithuania is (and hugely father away from Leningrad than Estonia is), so this seems irrelevant. What your neighbours and their friends put on their lawns is none of your business. If it's a lot of stuff usable for defending against arsehole neighbours, maybe in stead of attacking them you should think about what kind of a neighbour you are.

hnarn 5y ago

> It is a reasonable position. It is not. Russia does not have any say in what alliances other nations choose to join -- apart from the "last argument of kings" of course, and what's scary to me is that there are so many people like you around that seem to have this Clausewitz idea of war being "politics by other means" even in the present day. Your comment clearly makes excuses for Russia's actions, so no, in your case you are not keeping both of these thoughts in your head. Would you be so quick to defend the United States in the same manner if they had expressed concerns about Mexico's foreign policies for the past ten years? Or an invasion of an alternate-reality Cuba with a democratically elected government tomorrow?

tedivm 5y ago

Yeah but the fact that he invaded an independent country makes all of his other claims baseless. NATO didn't expand to Ukraine, he invaded anyways, so there is no point in appeasing him.