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For those wondering why Sweden is included in this threat despite not sharing a border with Russia, Finland and Sweden are like best friends and have been appro

For those wondering why Sweden is included in this threat despite not sharing a border with Russia, Finland and Sweden are like best friends and have been approaching anything regarding NATO and Russia as a unit together. Sweden joining NATO pretty much automatically means Finland also intends to join NATO. Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because they are not in NATO.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because they are not in NATO. It is because they are not in NATO and also did not explicitly abandon the aspiration of joining. The threat is intended to get Finland and Sweden to explicitly disclaim any intent of joining NATO (and maybe make binding commitments), not just to get them to not apply. OTOH, as you note, it also underscores the benefit of getting into NATO and under the umbrella while Russia’s military is committed to Ukraine.
- edmundsauto 5y ago
  Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? I don’t take what Putin says at face value.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? Yes, and no. I think that acceding to Russia’s demands here could have forestalled an invasion for the time being, but would have led to increasing Russian demands to direct policy, backed by threat of force, with even less available outside assistance. Ultimately either invasion or becoming a Russian puppet state would be the end, unless something else altered Russia’s course. The long game is empire, but close NATO association is an urgent obstacle to the long game.
  - _trackno5 5y ago
    Tbh it's tough to tell. There's a long history of Putin complaining about NATO expansion, and even before he came to power there were concerns about it. When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it. Seems like they are trying the same now. It's tough for me to empathise with this pathological fear of NATO Putin seems to have.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it. Russia occupied some parts of Georgia, similar to Ukraine prior to the current general invasion; Georgia remains a NATO partner and aspirant to membership, it hasn't yet been seized by Putin the way he is currently attempting in Ukraine.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> Anyway, this threat loses a lot of teeth when the reason Ukraine is getting destroyed at the moment is because they are not in NATO. It is because they are not in NATO and also did not explicitly abandon the aspiration of joining. The threat is intended to get Finland and Sweden to explicitly disclaim any intent of joining NATO (and maybe make binding commitments), not just to get them to not apply. OTOH, as you note, it also underscores the benefit of getting into NATO and under the umbrella while Russia’s military is committed to Ukraine.

edmundsauto 5y ago
Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? I don’t take what Putin says at face value.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Honest question, do you really believe that Russias attack was based on the NATO aspirations, or is that just an excuse? Yes, and no. I think that acceding to Russia’s demands here could have forestalled an invasion for the time being, but would have led to increasing Russian demands to direct policy, backed by threat of force, with even less available outside assistance. Ultimately either invasion or becoming a Russian puppet state would be the end, unless something else altered Russia’s course. The long game is empire, but close NATO association is an urgent obstacle to the long game.
- _trackno5 5y ago
  Tbh it's tough to tell. There's a long history of Putin complaining about NATO expansion, and even before he came to power there were concerns about it. When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it. Seems like they are trying the same now. It's tough for me to empathise with this pathological fear of NATO Putin seems to have.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > When Georgia was about to join NATO, Putin seized it. Russia occupied some parts of Georgia, similar to Ukraine prior to the current general invasion; Georgia remains a NATO partner and aspirant to membership, it hasn't yet been seized by Putin the way he is currently attempting in Ukraine.