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> China didn't attempt to conquer India China illegally occupies Aksai Chin. Pakistan illegally occupies parts of Kashmir. We have fought multiple wars with bo

by sinyug 5y ago

> China didn't attempt to conquer India China illegally occupies Aksai Chin. Pakistan illegally occupies parts of Kashmir. We have fought multiple wars with both countries over the last 75 years with very little help from outside parties. When the rest of the world goes beyond mere words to help restore these territories to India, I am sure India will be more than happy to move beyond mere words in similar situations.

ninjagoo 5y ago
> with very little help from outside parties. You might have missed the part of history where Bill Clinton pretty much ended the Kargil War and stopped Pakistan from nuking India [1][2]. [1] https://www.mea.gov.in/articles-in-indian-media.htm?dtl/15419/July+4+1999+Clinton+Nawaz+Vajpayee+and+a+Nwar https://www.mea.gov.in/articles-in-indian-media.htm?dtl/1541... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-india-nuclear-bomb-kargil-war-former-cia-officer-sandy-berger-bruce-riedel-a6758501.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-india... This isn't to say that the world goes often beyond mere words; every democratic nation's leadership is obligated to act in the best interest of their citizens, and what's in their best interest is not always clear at the outset. There's a reason diplomacy and statecraft are full-time jobs, and defense pacts like NATO exist. These pacts tie populations together and organize some of the decision-making process. Even then those pacts have steps that need to be triggered before action is taken, and NATO Article 5 [3] has been invoked only once in its history. The really interesting thing is that according to NATO Article 6, an attack on Hawaii or some Spanish cities may not trigger a NATO response [4] [3] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_... If you're looking for an example closer to home, consider the Pandavas' exile; they went to war only after all other options had been exhausted [5]. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War#Background Much as we as individuals want nations to act emotionally as we would, democratic nations simply do not make decisions that way. There are tens, perhaps even hundreds, of people involved at all levels of government in any major decisions around foreign policy. It is possible to subvert that machinery like with the 2nd Bush administration, and trash it altogether like with the Trump administration, but for the most part it works fairly rationally, if not always in the long-term interest.
- sinyug 5y ago
  > stopped Pakistan from nuking India That was never going to happen. Neither Musharraf nor Sharif are stupid people. The Americans have always been a cowardly lot when it comes to nuclear weapons. The Pakistan situation is a result of the gross incompetence on the part of the Indian and American establishments. India chose the wrong politics, the wrong friends and didn't contain Pakistan when we were in a position to do so. And America funded and protected them for imaginary achievements of their political objectives. The only winner in all this was the Pakistani establishment that made out like a bandit.
wolverine876 5y ago
> China illegally occupies Aksai Chin. Pakistan illegally occupies parts of Kashmir. Border disputes are everywhere, even between close allies like the US and Canada, the UK and France. Both sides have claims and arguments. That has nothing to do with conquering other other countries. > When the rest of the world goes beyond mere words to help restore these territories to India What should the world do? Fight a war? What has India's government asked the world to do? > I am sure India will be more than happy to move beyond mere words in similar situations India does a lot in concert with the rest of the world, and benefits enormously from it. The grievance-based nationalism also is common these days. Everyone has grievances - both in international relations and personally - but what party benefits from inflaming and acting on them?
- stickfigure 5y ago
  > Border disputes are everywhere, even between close allies like the US and Canada, the UK and France. Such a weird thing to say. When was the last time Americans and Canadians beat each other to death with barbed-wire wrapped clubs?
- sinyug 5y ago
  > Both sides have claims and arguments. In that case, both Russia and Ukraine have claims and arguments over parts of Ukrainian territory. Why should other countries interfere in their dispute? > What should the world do? Apply pressure? Isolate Pakistan and China completely like they are trying to do with Russia? Stop selling and gifting them weapons that will be used against India? But we know none of that is going to happen. Everyone knows that in American and European circles, Asian and African lives have far less value than European lives.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    The qualities of the claims, and the harm caused by the actions, are very significant factors. I hereby claim Perth. Can I now insist that Australia be isolated and cut off from the financial system? Is that the same as Russia invading Ukraine?
skinnymuch 5y ago
If Pakistan is illegally occupying Kashmir. Why is India not illegally occupying Hyderabad and Goa? Unless you agree they are.

by sinyug 5y ago

ninjagoo 5y ago

> with very little help from outside parties. You might have missed the part of history where Bill Clinton pretty much ended the Kargil War and stopped Pakistan from nuking India [1][2]. [1] https://www.mea.gov.in/articles-in-indian-media.htm?dtl/15419/July+4+1999+Clinton+Nawaz+Vajpayee+and+a+Nwar https://www.mea.gov.in/articles-in-indian-media.htm?dtl/1541... [2] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-india-nuclear-bomb-kargil-war-former-cia-officer-sandy-berger-bruce-riedel-a6758501.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/pakistan-india... This isn't to say that the world goes often beyond mere words; every democratic nation's leadership is obligated to act in the best interest of their citizens, and what's in their best interest is not always clear at the outset. There's a reason diplomacy and statecraft are full-time jobs, and defense pacts like NATO exist. These pacts tie populations together and organize some of the decision-making process. Even then those pacts have steps that need to be triggered before action is taken, and NATO Article 5 [3] has been invoked only once in its history. The really interesting thing is that according to NATO Article 6, an attack on Hawaii or some Spanish cities may not trigger a NATO response [4] [3] https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_110496.htm [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Atlantic_Treaty#Article_... If you're looking for an example closer to home, consider the Pandavas' exile; they went to war only after all other options had been exhausted [5]. [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War#Background https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurukshetra_War#Background Much as we as individuals want nations to act emotionally as we would, democratic nations simply do not make decisions that way. There are tens, perhaps even hundreds, of people involved at all levels of government in any major decisions around foreign policy. It is possible to subvert that machinery like with the 2nd Bush administration, and trash it altogether like with the Trump administration, but for the most part it works fairly rationally, if not always in the long-term interest.

sinyug 5y ago
> stopped Pakistan from nuking India That was never going to happen. Neither Musharraf nor Sharif are stupid people. The Americans have always been a cowardly lot when it comes to nuclear weapons. The Pakistan situation is a result of the gross incompetence on the part of the Indian and American establishments. India chose the wrong politics, the wrong friends and didn't contain Pakistan when we were in a position to do so. And America funded and protected them for imaginary achievements of their political objectives. The only winner in all this was the Pakistani establishment that made out like a bandit.

wolverine876 5y ago

> China illegally occupies Aksai Chin. Pakistan illegally occupies parts of Kashmir. Border disputes are everywhere, even between close allies like the US and Canada, the UK and France. Both sides have claims and arguments. That has nothing to do with conquering other other countries. > When the rest of the world goes beyond mere words to help restore these territories to India What should the world do? Fight a war? What has India's government asked the world to do? > I am sure India will be more than happy to move beyond mere words in similar situations India does a lot in concert with the rest of the world, and benefits enormously from it. The grievance-based nationalism also is common these days. Everyone has grievances - both in international relations and personally - but what party benefits from inflaming and acting on them?

stickfigure 5y ago
> Border disputes are everywhere, even between close allies like the US and Canada, the UK and France. Such a weird thing to say. When was the last time Americans and Canadians beat each other to death with barbed-wire wrapped clubs?
sinyug 5y ago
> Both sides have claims and arguments. In that case, both Russia and Ukraine have claims and arguments over parts of Ukrainian territory. Why should other countries interfere in their dispute? > What should the world do? Apply pressure? Isolate Pakistan and China completely like they are trying to do with Russia? Stop selling and gifting them weapons that will be used against India? But we know none of that is going to happen. Everyone knows that in American and European circles, Asian and African lives have far less value than European lives.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  The qualities of the claims, and the harm caused by the actions, are very significant factors. I hereby claim Perth. Can I now insist that Australia be isolated and cut off from the financial system? Is that the same as Russia invading Ukraine?

skinnymuch 5y ago

If Pakistan is illegally occupying Kashmir. Why is India not illegally occupying Hyderabad and Goa? Unless you agree they are.