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Maybe I'm paranoid, but I assume 100% of Russian content on Reddit is manufactured. Their government has just invested so much into psyops that it successfully

Maybe I'm paranoid, but I assume 100% of Russian content on Reddit is manufactured. Their government has just invested so much into psyops that it successfully undermined legitimate engagement (for me).

the_af 5y ago
I don't follow that line of reasoning. If a few Russian kids express "no hatred against Ukraine" and claim to actually feel powerless at the oligarchic structure of their country (Russia), in which way do you feel this could be manufactured psyops? What purpose could this serve as propaganda, "Russians kids don't like Putin or the ruling system"? Wouldn't propaganda look more like "our country means Ukraine no harm, but in this case we are right because [reasons]"?
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  It's being used right now to soften the perception of Russia ("See look, the Russian people don't approve of this!" as a way of implicitly arguing against sanctions) right now, that seems valuable. Also "chaos" has value. It's a big thing in how PsyOps works (from my limited understanding); when you sew chaos, you can get away with more.
  - the_af 5y ago
    > "see look, the Russian people don't approve of this! Don't punish them with sanctions!" But there have already been demonstrations against this war in Russia, with detainees and video footage showing this. And if you don't trust the footage, I'm sure someone knows someone in Russia who can attest to this. So we know at least some people in Russia don't support the invasion. More importantly, in my opinion: that kind of thinking is a trap. When your hypothesis is unfalsifiable, "all Russians online are lying, no matter what they say, and even when they agree with me" how is discourse possible at all? You cannot tell honest speech from propaganda because, by definition, all speech is propaganda?
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      I A) said I was probably paranoid and B) I didn't say they were lying, I said I assume they are. I'm describing an effective heuristic to help me accurately predict the future. I believe using data from Reddit users purporting to be Russian teenagers seems too easy to exploit and therefore unhelpful, predictively.
      - tanyatik 5y ago
        > I'm describing an effective heuristic to help me accurately predict the future. Accurately predict the future, huh? Are you a fortune teller? What you’re describing is nothing more than a hurtful bias, and please call it as such.
    - 988747 5y ago
      You can tell lies by saying nothing but the truth :) One example that comes to mind is the time of Solidarity revolution in Poland. It was a time where most Poles only had two TV channels (own by communists) and handful of radio stations (also controlled by communists) to choose from. Now, before the strike in Gdansk docks happened TV or radio did not cover crime rates at all. After the strike started, media started filling the news with reports of every murder, rape, burglary they could find. This created the impression that Solidarity pushed the country into total chaos, paving the way to introducing martial law, while the truth is (you can check that in police statistics from that time) the crime rates actually went DOWN significantly during that period. Now, did those TV channels lie or not? Every single crime they reported in the news was 100% truth, but the aggregate impression they created was 100% false.
      - the_af 5y ago
        I understand lies by omission. But in this case we are being suspicious of alleged Russian teenagers saying they don't hate Ukraine but feel powerless to condition their own government in Russia. I mean, that's almost an anti-Putin statement, how can it be misconstrued as pro-Putin psyops?
        5y ago
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    More and more I start to believe most of communications are really noise to make the less aggressive camp pause and think if this makes sense at all, while the other camp marches on.
  - tyrfing 5y ago
    Most of the propaganda is much more obvious than that, for the most part it ends up downvoted on Reddit. In this context, the messages are more like "give up and flee, it's inevitable" (alternately: staged video of a pile of bodies, seen yesterday; large formations deploying from Chechnya, etc), "the war is because of NATO expansion", "Nazi government". Just to name a few themes. I would also guess that 90% of propaganda you see is primarily people spreading it for ideological and non-monetary reasons, it just has to be seeded enough for the messages to be spread. One of the fascinating trends is that the most rapidly spreading stuff is purely visual, short video. The dominance of short clips is incredible, and allows for so much subtly misleading content.
graphpercolator 5y ago
Russia has a population of a 140 million people. It is utterly preposterous to believe not a single one uses Reddit AND doesn't agree with their government. Not to mention, where do you think those people would go? Maybe Reddit? Maybe that actually makes a ton of sense?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  I'm confused; where did I say I believed literally zero people from Russia who also disapprove of Putin use Reddit? I said I assume that to be the case, which is foundationally different; I don't know of a way to tell which is which, so in order to predict outcomes most accurately, I default to the position that I don't accept Reddit as a source for this.
- witrak 5y ago
  Did you see what's going on r/Russia? You can be banned not for your comment there but for the fact you are on another subreddit. No, not for your comment there! It's enough that others are against the Russian invasion.
  - Dma54rhs 5y ago
    This is typical in reddit, never liked it, but it's not something they invented.
  - badtension 5y ago
    I believe this subreddit is extremely harmful. Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/t1ya3b/memo_to_the_civilian_population_of_the_occupied/ https://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/t1ya3b/memo_to_the_... Is there a way to stop it? This is propaganda in the open.

the_af 5y ago

I don't follow that line of reasoning. If a few Russian kids express "no hatred against Ukraine" and claim to actually feel powerless at the oligarchic structure of their country (Russia), in which way do you feel this could be manufactured psyops? What purpose could this serve as propaganda, "Russians kids don't like Putin or the ruling system"? Wouldn't propaganda look more like "our country means Ukraine no harm, but in this case we are right because [reasons]"?

TameAntelope 5y ago
It's being used right now to soften the perception of Russia ("See look, the Russian people don't approve of this!" as a way of implicitly arguing against sanctions) right now, that seems valuable. Also "chaos" has value. It's a big thing in how PsyOps works (from my limited understanding); when you sew chaos, you can get away with more.
- the_af 5y ago
  > "see look, the Russian people don't approve of this! Don't punish them with sanctions!" But there have already been demonstrations against this war in Russia, with detainees and video footage showing this. And if you don't trust the footage, I'm sure someone knows someone in Russia who can attest to this. So we know at least some people in Russia don't support the invasion. More importantly, in my opinion: that kind of thinking is a trap. When your hypothesis is unfalsifiable, "all Russians online are lying, no matter what they say, and even when they agree with me" how is discourse possible at all? You cannot tell honest speech from propaganda because, by definition, all speech is propaganda?
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    I A) said I was probably paranoid and B) I didn't say they were lying, I said I assume they are. I'm describing an effective heuristic to help me accurately predict the future. I believe using data from Reddit users purporting to be Russian teenagers seems too easy to exploit and therefore unhelpful, predictively.
    - tanyatik 5y ago
      > I'm describing an effective heuristic to help me accurately predict the future. Accurately predict the future, huh? Are you a fortune teller? What you’re describing is nothing more than a hurtful bias, and please call it as such.
  - 988747 5y ago
    You can tell lies by saying nothing but the truth :) One example that comes to mind is the time of Solidarity revolution in Poland. It was a time where most Poles only had two TV channels (own by communists) and handful of radio stations (also controlled by communists) to choose from. Now, before the strike in Gdansk docks happened TV or radio did not cover crime rates at all. After the strike started, media started filling the news with reports of every murder, rape, burglary they could find. This created the impression that Solidarity pushed the country into total chaos, paving the way to introducing martial law, while the truth is (you can check that in police statistics from that time) the crime rates actually went DOWN significantly during that period. Now, did those TV channels lie or not? Every single crime they reported in the news was 100% truth, but the aggregate impression they created was 100% false.
    - the_af 5y ago
      I understand lies by omission. But in this case we are being suspicious of alleged Russian teenagers saying they don't hate Ukraine but feel powerless to condition their own government in Russia. I mean, that's almost an anti-Putin statement, how can it be misconstrued as pro-Putin psyops?
      - 5y ago
- agumonkey 5y ago
  More and more I start to believe most of communications are really noise to make the less aggressive camp pause and think if this makes sense at all, while the other camp marches on.
- tyrfing 5y ago
  Most of the propaganda is much more obvious than that, for the most part it ends up downvoted on Reddit. In this context, the messages are more like "give up and flee, it's inevitable" (alternately: staged video of a pile of bodies, seen yesterday; large formations deploying from Chechnya, etc), "the war is because of NATO expansion", "Nazi government". Just to name a few themes. I would also guess that 90% of propaganda you see is primarily people spreading it for ideological and non-monetary reasons, it just has to be seeded enough for the messages to be spread. One of the fascinating trends is that the most rapidly spreading stuff is purely visual, short video. The dominance of short clips is incredible, and allows for so much subtly misleading content.

graphpercolator 5y ago

Russia has a population of a 140 million people. It is utterly preposterous to believe not a single one uses Reddit AND doesn't agree with their government. Not to mention, where do you think those people would go? Maybe Reddit? Maybe that actually makes a ton of sense?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
TameAntelope 5y ago
I'm confused; where did I say I believed literally zero people from Russia who also disapprove of Putin use Reddit? I said I assume that to be the case, which is foundationally different; I don't know of a way to tell which is which, so in order to predict outcomes most accurately, I default to the position that I don't accept Reddit as a source for this.
witrak 5y ago
Did you see what's going on r/Russia? You can be banned not for your comment there but for the fact you are on another subreddit. No, not for your comment there! It's enough that others are against the Russian invasion.
- Dma54rhs 5y ago
  This is typical in reddit, never liked it, but it's not something they invented.
- badtension 5y ago
  I believe this subreddit is extremely harmful. Example: https://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/t1ya3b/memo_to_the_civilian_population_of_the_occupied/ https://www.reddit.com/r/russia/comments/t1ya3b/memo_to_the_... Is there a way to stop it? This is propaganda in the open.