4 ms·

I would counter your comment by saying that it is pretty unjust to judge the whole population by taking the worst examples as a metric. Taliban and the Saudi A

by 4ggr0 5y ago

I would counter your comment by saying that it is pretty unjust to judge the whole population by taking the worst examples as a metric. Taliban and the Saudi Arabian government are very conservative and I don't like them either, yes. But I would not take these two as a description for "People from the middle east". I agree a bit with "people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues", but I still think that the comment I responded to is wrong, and your explanation does not really change my mind. Of course there are issues. A person who hates other sexualities, doesn't like women being independent and wants to spread their religion no matter what is a tough challenge for progressive cultures, but then I guess Europe should not accept very conservative people from other places either ;D As an example, I don't know why a very conservative, traditionalist and religious person from Texas should be more compatible with Europe than someone from Saudi Arabia(half joking). Add to that, that Europe != Europe. Were I gay, I would not want to live in Hungary or Poland, either.

colechristensen 5y ago
Indeed it's not the whole population, not every individual in it. There are though, bulk properties of large groups of people (which also vary by location, citizens of Tehran would differ a lot from Pakistani villagers) and those bulk properties should be acknowledged and of concern. What I'm pointing out in the parent comment is that if those are the kinds of things that constitute social progress in your part of the world, it's pretty clear that your median or typical cultural attitudes have a pretty damn big distance from that of modern western european nations.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  There are plenty of native people in my country who would agree with some of these middle eastern people you mean when asked about gay people, women working and having power etc. I am of course not including actual terrorists or people who want to kill others in my comment, but I think it should be understandable what I mean. So, yes, very conservative people from the middle eastare a tough challenge, but for me that does not justify saying that they're incompatible and should rather stay in their countries. First-generation migrants are a tough challenge, depending on who they are. But with time and care, this will be manageable. Not all of them, but again, this should not be as big of an issue as to say that they should stay away.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
zpeti 5y ago
Jews can’t walk around in Paris or many German cities without being spit on. And it’s not white supremacists doing this, it’s muslims. And they’re not getting more integrated, but less.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  I think we can agree that people who mistreat others based on their religion are just assholes in general, doesn't matter if they're extremist muslims, christians, atheists etc.
  - zpeti 5y ago
    That’s a great way to apologize for bad cultural behaviour. Are nazis generally ok as well there are just a few bad apples? 100% of Uk based Muslims think making homesexuality illegal would be ok. Are they all just extremists then?
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      > 100% of Uk based Muslims think making homesexuality illegal would be ok Well, that's a lie. And what the hell are you on about, starting to compare Nazis to this. You are saying that hating gay people is muslim culture? I am not apologizing these acts either, merely saying that hating other religions is not a muslim-only thing.
      - zpeti 5y ago
        Sorry I remembered it wrong. It’s half of Uk muslims. And these are probably the most tolerant muslims in the world mind you. 50% doesn’t make it any better though really: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl...
nec4b 5y ago
Were I gay or jewish, I would feel way safer holding hands with another man in Budapest or Warsaw than in a muslim quarter of any large Western European cities.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  Well if that's your feeling then so be it :) Hungary has Anti-LGBT laws, same can't be said about "muslim quarters".
  - nec4b 5y ago
    Homosexuality is legal in Hungary and is a sin in Islam.
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      Sure. It's legal. They also want to ban homo-/transsexuality from childrens books and media, but yeah, totally legal. It's a sin in Islam, true. You were talking about muslim quarters in european cities, where as far as I know, the law from the country this quarter is in applies, and not the shariah or whatever you may think goes on there.
      - sharken 5y ago
        In theory the laws of the country also apply for Muslim quarters. But i will suggest that living openly as a gay person in said quarters is just not possible. Threats and harassment at a level much greater than you would find in e.g. Hungary will be the order of the day. Those are the facts.
      - nec4b 5y ago
        Yes it is totally legal in Hungary, nobody will persecute you for being gay. On the other hand you have Muslim patrols in cities like London. Maybe it will come as shock to you, but some people don't care much about the laws.

by 4ggr0 5y ago

colechristensen 5y ago

Indeed it's not the whole population, not every individual in it. There are though, bulk properties of large groups of people (which also vary by location, citizens of Tehran would differ a lot from Pakistani villagers) and those bulk properties should be acknowledged and of concern. What I'm pointing out in the parent comment is that if those are the kinds of things that constitute social progress in your part of the world, it's pretty clear that your median or typical cultural attitudes have a pretty damn big distance from that of modern western european nations.

4ggr0 5y ago
There are plenty of native people in my country who would agree with some of these middle eastern people you mean when asked about gay people, women working and having power etc. I am of course not including actual terrorists or people who want to kill others in my comment, but I think it should be understandable what I mean. So, yes, very conservative people from the middle eastare a tough challenge, but for me that does not justify saying that they're incompatible and should rather stay in their countries. First-generation migrants are a tough challenge, depending on who they are. But with time and care, this will be manageable. Not all of them, but again, this should not be as big of an issue as to say that they should stay away.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

zpeti 5y ago

Jews can’t walk around in Paris or many German cities without being spit on. And it’s not white supremacists doing this, it’s muslims. And they’re not getting more integrated, but less.

4ggr0 5y ago
I think we can agree that people who mistreat others based on their religion are just assholes in general, doesn't matter if they're extremist muslims, christians, atheists etc.
- zpeti 5y ago
  That’s a great way to apologize for bad cultural behaviour. Are nazis generally ok as well there are just a few bad apples? 100% of Uk based Muslims think making homesexuality illegal would be ok. Are they all just extremists then?
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    > 100% of Uk based Muslims think making homesexuality illegal would be ok Well, that's a lie. And what the hell are you on about, starting to compare Nazis to this. You are saying that hating gay people is muslim culture? I am not apologizing these acts either, merely saying that hating other religions is not a muslim-only thing.
    - zpeti 5y ago
      Sorry I remembered it wrong. It’s half of Uk muslims. And these are probably the most tolerant muslims in the world mind you. 50% doesn’t make it any better though really: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-muslims-strong-sense-of-belonging-poll-homosexuality-sharia-law https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/apr/11/british-musl...

nec4b 5y ago

Were I gay or jewish, I would feel way safer holding hands with another man in Budapest or Warsaw than in a muslim quarter of any large Western European cities.

4ggr0 5y ago
Well if that's your feeling then so be it :) Hungary has Anti-LGBT laws, same can't be said about "muslim quarters".
- nec4b 5y ago
  Homosexuality is legal in Hungary and is a sin in Islam.
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    Sure. It's legal. They also want to ban homo-/transsexuality from childrens books and media, but yeah, totally legal. It's a sin in Islam, true. You were talking about muslim quarters in european cities, where as far as I know, the law from the country this quarter is in applies, and not the shariah or whatever you may think goes on there.
    - sharken 5y ago
      In theory the laws of the country also apply for Muslim quarters. But i will suggest that living openly as a gay person in said quarters is just not possible. Threats and harassment at a level much greater than you would find in e.g. Hungary will be the order of the day. Those are the facts.
    - nec4b 5y ago
      Yes it is totally legal in Hungary, nobody will persecute you for being gay. On the other hand you have Muslim patrols in cities like London. Maybe it will come as shock to you, but some people don't care much about the laws.