6 ms·

Sorry but that's just straight-up right-wing propaganda. Don't know if you're acting in bad faith or just repeating things you've read or heard somewhere, but s

by 4ggr0 5y ago

Sorry but that's just straight-up right-wing propaganda. Don't know if you're acting in bad faith or just repeating things you've read or heard somewhere, but statements like these are just disgusting to me as a Caucasian european who grew up with friends who have parents from the middle east. I'm an atheist, some of my friends are muslim, yet we don't struggle to be friends because of that. You are probably talking about very conservative people who like to hang gay people and all of that funny stuff, but just making a blank statement that this is true for all of the middle east is very wrong. EDIT: Was never down-voted so fast on HN, is the majority of HN really so negative towards people from the middle east?

colechristensen 5y ago
When things like reading a headline "UNICEF Chief: Taliban Committed to Let Girls Back to School" or the recent history of progress for women in Saudi Arabia is women being allowed to drive... it's not extremist propaganda to say that importing populations from the middle east will have huge cultural implications for western nations. It is inappropriate to apply the generalization to one person, because there is much diversity among people. When you talk about a population though, it isn't propaganda to say that there are huge cultural problems with views which are fundamentally problematic if you try to import sizable portions into a modern western country. One of the reasons you get strong right-wing reactionaries is people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues instead of acknowledging and trying to mitigate and minimize them. There are certainly lovely people from the middle east, I have had the pleasure of knowing a few who were from or had roots in that part of the world. There is a basic difference between (wrongly) saying "this is where you're from and what you look like so you must be like this" and (rightly) "taking in a million refugees from here will have these sorts of problems".
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  I would counter your comment by saying that it is pretty unjust to judge the whole population by taking the worst examples as a metric. Taliban and the Saudi Arabian government are very conservative and I don't like them either, yes. But I would not take these two as a description for "People from the middle east". I agree a bit with "people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues", but I still think that the comment I responded to is wrong, and your explanation does not really change my mind. Of course there are issues. A person who hates other sexualities, doesn't like women being independent and wants to spread their religion no matter what is a tough challenge for progressive cultures, but then I guess Europe should not accept very conservative people from other places either ;D As an example, I don't know why a very conservative, traditionalist and religious person from Texas should be more compatible with Europe than someone from Saudi Arabia(half joking). Add to that, that Europe != Europe. Were I gay, I would not want to live in Hungary or Poland, either.
  - colechristensen 5y ago
    Indeed it's not the whole population, not every individual in it. There are though, bulk properties of large groups of people (which also vary by location, citizens of Tehran would differ a lot from Pakistani villagers) and those bulk properties should be acknowledged and of concern. What I'm pointing out in the parent comment is that if those are the kinds of things that constitute social progress in your part of the world, it's pretty clear that your median or typical cultural attitudes have a pretty damn big distance from that of modern western european nations.
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      There are plenty of native people in my country who would agree with some of these middle eastern people you mean when asked about gay people, women working and having power etc. I am of course not including actual terrorists or people who want to kill others in my comment, but I think it should be understandable what I mean. So, yes, very conservative people from the middle eastare a tough challenge, but for me that does not justify saying that they're incompatible and should rather stay in their countries. First-generation migrants are a tough challenge, depending on who they are. But with time and care, this will be manageable. Not all of them, but again, this should not be as big of an issue as to say that they should stay away.
  - deleted 5y ago
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  - zpeti 5y ago
    Jews can’t walk around in Paris or many German cities without being spit on. And it’s not white supremacists doing this, it’s muslims. And they’re not getting more integrated, but less.
    - 4ggr0 5y ago
      I think we can agree that people who mistreat others based on their religion are just assholes in general, doesn't matter if they're extremist muslims, christians, atheists etc.
- unmole 5y ago
  So, is Afghanistan also a part of the Middle East now?
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tsol 5y ago
>EDIT: Was never down-voted so fast on HN, is the majority of HN really so negative towards people from the middle east? I'm surprised myself, generally HN is pretty reasonable and fair about allowing different view points. International conflict seems to bring out the xenophobes and overly political actors. I say this as a Muslim who grew up with many close atheist friends, who has seen this pattern many times over the past few decades.
- 4ggr0 5y ago
  > International conflict seems to bring out the xenophobes and overly political actors Yeah, it really does feel like it. It seems to me like a lot of europeans and americans have a pretty warped view about africa/middle east.

by 4ggr0 5y ago

colechristensen 5y ago

When things like reading a headline "UNICEF Chief: Taliban Committed to Let Girls Back to School" or the recent history of progress for women in Saudi Arabia is women being allowed to drive... it's not extremist propaganda to say that importing populations from the middle east will have huge cultural implications for western nations. It is inappropriate to apply the generalization to one person, because there is much diversity among people. When you talk about a population though, it isn't propaganda to say that there are huge cultural problems with views which are fundamentally problematic if you try to import sizable portions into a modern western country. One of the reasons you get strong right-wing reactionaries is people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues instead of acknowledging and trying to mitigate and minimize them. There are certainly lovely people from the middle east, I have had the pleasure of knowing a few who were from or had roots in that part of the world. There is a basic difference between (wrongly) saying "this is where you're from and what you look like so you must be like this" and (rightly) "taking in a million refugees from here will have these sorts of problems".

4ggr0 5y ago
I would counter your comment by saying that it is pretty unjust to judge the whole population by taking the worst examples as a metric. Taliban and the Saudi Arabian government are very conservative and I don't like them either, yes. But I would not take these two as a description for "People from the middle east". I agree a bit with "people who are trying to be progressive turning a blind eye to the actual cultural issues", but I still think that the comment I responded to is wrong, and your explanation does not really change my mind. Of course there are issues. A person who hates other sexualities, doesn't like women being independent and wants to spread their religion no matter what is a tough challenge for progressive cultures, but then I guess Europe should not accept very conservative people from other places either ;D As an example, I don't know why a very conservative, traditionalist and religious person from Texas should be more compatible with Europe than someone from Saudi Arabia(half joking). Add to that, that Europe != Europe. Were I gay, I would not want to live in Hungary or Poland, either.
- colechristensen 5y ago
  Indeed it's not the whole population, not every individual in it. There are though, bulk properties of large groups of people (which also vary by location, citizens of Tehran would differ a lot from Pakistani villagers) and those bulk properties should be acknowledged and of concern. What I'm pointing out in the parent comment is that if those are the kinds of things that constitute social progress in your part of the world, it's pretty clear that your median or typical cultural attitudes have a pretty damn big distance from that of modern western european nations.
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    There are plenty of native people in my country who would agree with some of these middle eastern people you mean when asked about gay people, women working and having power etc. I am of course not including actual terrorists or people who want to kill others in my comment, but I think it should be understandable what I mean. So, yes, very conservative people from the middle eastare a tough challenge, but for me that does not justify saying that they're incompatible and should rather stay in their countries. First-generation migrants are a tough challenge, depending on who they are. But with time and care, this will be manageable. Not all of them, but again, this should not be as big of an issue as to say that they should stay away.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- zpeti 5y ago
  Jews can’t walk around in Paris or many German cities without being spit on. And it’s not white supremacists doing this, it’s muslims. And they’re not getting more integrated, but less.
  - 4ggr0 5y ago
    I think we can agree that people who mistreat others based on their religion are just assholes in general, doesn't matter if they're extremist muslims, christians, atheists etc.
unmole 5y ago
So, is Afghanistan also a part of the Middle East now?

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tsol 5y ago

>EDIT: Was never down-voted so fast on HN, is the majority of HN really so negative towards people from the middle east? I'm surprised myself, generally HN is pretty reasonable and fair about allowing different view points. International conflict seems to bring out the xenophobes and overly political actors. I say this as a Muslim who grew up with many close atheist friends, who has seen this pattern many times over the past few decades.

4ggr0 5y ago
> International conflict seems to bring out the xenophobes and overly political actors Yeah, it really does feel like it. It seems to me like a lot of europeans and americans have a pretty warped view about africa/middle east.