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> It's fucked up that it was attacked I don't think many people outside Russia disagree with that (including the GP). > it's not fucked up that there are soci

by Udo 5y ago

> It's fucked up that it was attacked I don't think many people outside Russia disagree with that (including the GP). > it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need. This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. It's also not a pro-russian statement to say that limiting the travel ban to men only is inhumane - it tears families apart that may never re-unite again, leaving both halves weak to all kinds of dangers. It's also not clear what is being gained in exchange for this. There are many women part of the voluntary defense forces, just as there are many men who cannot reasonably participate in the fight.

cloutchaser 5y ago
Believe it or not men actually make better soldiers for the physical stuff at least, and therefore there is a historical and just evolutionary reaction in times of war that men go and defend their country. Denying this is like denying sexual attraction. When your country is attacked families are seperated, people die, and fucked up things happen. But if you don't defend your country you are guaranteed to lose and be overrun and be ruled by a maniac dictator. So there's your choice. I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap and avoiding "inhumanity" and being concerned about the mental health of families. That doesn't matter when a russian tank rolls down your street. What matters is your survival and your country's survival.
- medstrom 5y ago
  For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac.
    - tablespoon 5y ago
      >> For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe. > If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac. Also, on the other end, if you're enmeshed in a culture that's rife with corruption and nepotism. Loyalty to only a very narrow band of close relatives is usually not a recipe for a successful society.
  - 0x38B 5y ago
    Here's an account from a Ukrainian 4 hours ago re: fighting spirit in a pro-Russian city in Donetsk (my translation): > "Here's what's happening in Kramatorsk [a city in Donetsk]: It's quiet for now, but we're expecting an escalation in the evening. I was at the military registration and enlistment office. Just so you understand, our city is pro-Russian. Was. Seems that's now in the past. There's a huge line at the office, of both the young and old. I don't know what they thought to themselves in Russia, but they've lost our country once and for all. Such are the preliminary results of operation "Like it or not, endure, my dearest". [Putin's words to Zelensky Feb 7 in response to the latter stating he liked none of the points of the Minsk Accords]" Source: https://www.facebook.com/e.menendes/posts/7085200851522280 https://www.facebook.com/e.menendes/posts/7085200851522280
- Udo 5y ago
  > I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap That's a baseless and uncharitable take. But even if you disagree strongly that women can participate meaningfully in modern combat (pre-invasion Ukraine seemed to think there was nothing wrong with having women be part of the voluntary defense force), it is monstrous of you to assert that opposing how families get torn apart by this decree is somehow tantamount to "equality crap". If there was a male-only general draft in effect you could at least argue that the men need to stay behind for mandatory service. But as of now, they're needlessly sending women and children away as refugees while the men stay behind to do whatever. I want to see you construct an argument that clarifies how this leads to better outcomes for these families.
tablespoon 5y ago
> This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. Sometimes social expectations are enforced. Also, they're being invaded. It would be foolish to insist on waiting for a formal legislative process.

by Udo 5y ago

cloutchaser 5y ago

Believe it or not men actually make better soldiers for the physical stuff at least, and therefore there is a historical and just evolutionary reaction in times of war that men go and defend their country. Denying this is like denying sexual attraction. When your country is attacked families are seperated, people die, and fucked up things happen. But if you don't defend your country you are guaranteed to lose and be overrun and be ruled by a maniac dictator. So there's your choice. I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap and avoiding "inhumanity" and being concerned about the mental health of families. That doesn't matter when a russian tank rolls down your street. What matters is your survival and your country's survival.

medstrom 5y ago
For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac.
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    >> For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe. > If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac. Also, on the other end, if you're enmeshed in a culture that's rife with corruption and nepotism. Loyalty to only a very narrow band of close relatives is usually not a recipe for a successful society.
- 0x38B 5y ago
  Here's an account from a Ukrainian 4 hours ago re: fighting spirit in a pro-Russian city in Donetsk (my translation): > "Here's what's happening in Kramatorsk [a city in Donetsk]: It's quiet for now, but we're expecting an escalation in the evening. I was at the military registration and enlistment office. Just so you understand, our city is pro-Russian. Was. Seems that's now in the past. There's a huge line at the office, of both the young and old. I don't know what they thought to themselves in Russia, but they've lost our country once and for all. Such are the preliminary results of operation "Like it or not, endure, my dearest". [Putin's words to Zelensky Feb 7 in response to the latter stating he liked none of the points of the Minsk Accords]" Source: https://www.facebook.com/e.menendes/posts/7085200851522280 https://www.facebook.com/e.menendes/posts/7085200851522280
Udo 5y ago
> I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap That's a baseless and uncharitable take. But even if you disagree strongly that women can participate meaningfully in modern combat (pre-invasion Ukraine seemed to think there was nothing wrong with having women be part of the voluntary defense force), it is monstrous of you to assert that opposing how families get torn apart by this decree is somehow tantamount to "equality crap". If there was a male-only general draft in effect you could at least argue that the men need to stay behind for mandatory service. But as of now, they're needlessly sending women and children away as refugees while the men stay behind to do whatever. I want to see you construct an argument that clarifies how this leads to better outcomes for these families.

tablespoon 5y ago

> This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. Sometimes social expectations are enforced. Also, they're being invaded. It would be foolish to insist on waiting for a formal legislative process.