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>> Sad thing is that now with conscription, if you are male 18-55, Ukraine side will force you to fight that war, at least as far as I understand it. > What a

>> Sad thing is that now with conscription, if you are male 18-55, Ukraine side will force you to fight that war, at least as far as I understand it. > What a fucked up world we live in… It's fucked up that it was attacked, it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need.

moonchrome 5y ago
I thought about this, my country went trough a civil war 30 years ago. Since the independence "our" government has just been about splitting the spoils of war between the elites. Between me and my families I think we own one house that's not worth anything because of it's location and my apartment which I'm still paying off. So if my country got attacked I would grab my family and leave without a second thought - let the people who divided the profits and live off the benefits defend it - I would be just as well in any other country. Now if it came to world war and it was Russia and China taking over the west I would feel differently about it - but in that case it's a nuclear armageddon so I could probably do shit.
- hogrider 5y ago
  Even at the heught of the nation state as the sole ordering institution in your life I always wondered what compells people to fight for their country other than self defense ofc. At the end of the day you will still be serving the elites when it's all over. Most times they didn't take good care of the veterans. Really no incentive to fight hard other than you were conscripted and treason carries the death penalty.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > At the end of the day you will still be serving the elites when it's all over What's the alternative? Not fight and become occupied and likely oppressed - is that a better choice? Or flee and become a war refugee? The average citizen doesn't have highly sought-after skills in other countries, they are likely to go to a refugee camp for months and years. So, some people choose to fight for their families, friends, and preserving their way of life. I think defending the in-group from an aggressive out-group is a perfectly reasonable, ingrained human response.
  - yks 5y ago
    In the end of the day everyone dies anyway and dying defending your home is virtuous on the subconscious level. This is not a rational conclusion you can think through lying on your couch in peaceful times, but when your family is already in the bomb shelter, you cornered on all sides and rockets are flying over, some kind of a deeper instinct kicks in. That's why many Ukrainians are fighting so fiercely right now, there is not enough mental capacity about caring about "serving the elites" or other such thoughts of better times anymore, you fight, you die, you live.
  - codyb 5y ago
    I’d fight to protect my family and friends from a foreign invasion. Sounds better than running.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Civil wars are different, being the aggressor is very much different from being the defender.
Udo 5y ago
> It's fucked up that it was attacked I don't think many people outside Russia disagree with that (including the GP). > it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need. This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. It's also not a pro-russian statement to say that limiting the travel ban to men only is inhumane - it tears families apart that may never re-unite again, leaving both halves weak to all kinds of dangers. It's also not clear what is being gained in exchange for this. There are many women part of the voluntary defense forces, just as there are many men who cannot reasonably participate in the fight.
- cloutchaser 5y ago
  Believe it or not men actually make better soldiers for the physical stuff at least, and therefore there is a historical and just evolutionary reaction in times of war that men go and defend their country. Denying this is like denying sexual attraction. When your country is attacked families are seperated, people die, and fucked up things happen. But if you don't defend your country you are guaranteed to lose and be overrun and be ruled by a maniac dictator. So there's your choice. I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap and avoiding "inhumanity" and being concerned about the mental health of families. That doesn't matter when a russian tank rolls down your street. What matters is your survival and your country's survival.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe.
    - cloutchaser 5y ago
      If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac.
75984375 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
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moonchrome 5y ago

I thought about this, my country went trough a civil war 30 years ago. Since the independence "our" government has just been about splitting the spoils of war between the elites. Between me and my families I think we own one house that's not worth anything because of it's location and my apartment which I'm still paying off. So if my country got attacked I would grab my family and leave without a second thought - let the people who divided the profits and live off the benefits defend it - I would be just as well in any other country. Now if it came to world war and it was Russia and China taking over the west I would feel differently about it - but in that case it's a nuclear armageddon so I could probably do shit.

hogrider 5y ago
Even at the heught of the nation state as the sole ordering institution in your life I always wondered what compells people to fight for their country other than self defense ofc. At the end of the day you will still be serving the elites when it's all over. Most times they didn't take good care of the veterans. Really no incentive to fight hard other than you were conscripted and treason carries the death penalty.
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > At the end of the day you will still be serving the elites when it's all over What's the alternative? Not fight and become occupied and likely oppressed - is that a better choice? Or flee and become a war refugee? The average citizen doesn't have highly sought-after skills in other countries, they are likely to go to a refugee camp for months and years. So, some people choose to fight for their families, friends, and preserving their way of life. I think defending the in-group from an aggressive out-group is a perfectly reasonable, ingrained human response.
- yks 5y ago
  In the end of the day everyone dies anyway and dying defending your home is virtuous on the subconscious level. This is not a rational conclusion you can think through lying on your couch in peaceful times, but when your family is already in the bomb shelter, you cornered on all sides and rockets are flying over, some kind of a deeper instinct kicks in. That's why many Ukrainians are fighting so fiercely right now, there is not enough mental capacity about caring about "serving the elites" or other such thoughts of better times anymore, you fight, you die, you live.
- codyb 5y ago
  I’d fight to protect my family and friends from a foreign invasion. Sounds better than running.
jacquesm 5y ago
Civil wars are different, being the aggressor is very much different from being the defender.

Udo 5y ago

> It's fucked up that it was attacked I don't think many people outside Russia disagree with that (including the GP). > it's not fucked up that there are social expectations for its citizens to rise to its defence in its time of need. This ia a misrepresentation. It's not a social expectation, it's part of the current martial law decrees. As far as I'm aware (please correct me if I'm wrong) there is no general draft, yet. It's also not a pro-russian statement to say that limiting the travel ban to men only is inhumane - it tears families apart that may never re-unite again, leaving both halves weak to all kinds of dangers. It's also not clear what is being gained in exchange for this. There are many women part of the voluntary defense forces, just as there are many men who cannot reasonably participate in the fight.

cloutchaser 5y ago
Believe it or not men actually make better soldiers for the physical stuff at least, and therefore there is a historical and just evolutionary reaction in times of war that men go and defend their country. Denying this is like denying sexual attraction. When your country is attacked families are seperated, people die, and fucked up things happen. But if you don't defend your country you are guaranteed to lose and be overrun and be ruled by a maniac dictator. So there's your choice. I find your position ridiculous and clearly from someone who's never experienced war or even heard about it from parents and grandparents. I have. You can forget about your equality crap and avoiding "inhumanity" and being concerned about the mental health of families. That doesn't matter when a russian tank rolls down your street. What matters is your survival and your country's survival.
- medstrom 5y ago
  For this to work, your hypothetical man has to see that country as "his tribe" in the first place. I think a lot of people don't, and basically just see their own family as their tribe.
  - cloutchaser 5y ago
    If you’re some hypothetical cosmopolitan man who’s lived in 10 cities and has no emotional connection to anywhere, maybe. Most people don’t want to see their local area taken over by some Russian maniac.

75984375 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]