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> In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. Just as large numbers of US citizens disagreed with the w

> In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. Just as large numbers of US citizens disagreed with the wars of the last decades. > Indeed. But this isn't the Cuban missile crisis (which was provoked by the USSR to begin with) and the Ukraine isn't anything like Cuba. Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad".

jacquesm 5y ago
> Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. You could, but it would be bullshit. > But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did.
- Sebb767 5y ago
  > You could, but it would be bullshit. In your (our) opinion. But that does not make it an absolute truth. > If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did. And that's why I ended my post with: >> It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". I don't think that turning the other cheek is the right move here. My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > But that does not make it an absolute truth. There we have that false balance thing again. It's documented bullshit, so you can choose to just see it as my opinion, but NATO has a couple of articles formulated especially to deal with aggression like this. To posit that joining an alliance - which didn't happen, another simple fact - because you are afraid of your aggressive neighbor is the cause of the aggression is a pretty extreme form of victim blaming. > My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys. Believe me, I'm a pacifist at heart. And what's happening now in Ukraine (and prior to that in Chechnya) makes my blood boil. I've seen first hand what life under Russia looks like, there is no way this is going to be whitewashed.
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > I've seen first hand what life under Russia looks like, there is no way this is going to be whitewashed. I'm really not trying to whitewash anything. I have friends in the Ukraine and I'm fearing for their live right now - and, to be honest, a bit for mine, since this conflict is really close to escalating near my actual home. The last thing I want to do is to condone Russian aggression. My point is that it's really easy to get lost once you accept violence as good. So I can absolutely understand why Patreon chooses to stay neutral in a war, even if it's for (what we see as _and probably is_) the right side. Violence might sometimes be necessary, but it's never a "not bad" thing, especially since it's easy to see oneself on the right side and be wrong about it - which does not mean I think Russia is in any way right here, just to be very clear. And I think we both agree that the aggression in the Ukraine is both wrong horrible and that violence is generally a bad thing, just to state the obvious - which is probably why we don't get anywhere with this discussion.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        > My point is that it's really easy to get lost once you accept violence as good. I don't think any normal person believes that violence is good. It's the last option on the table. But it is an option. > and, to be honest, a bit for mine, since this conflict is really close to escalating near my actual home. The last thing I want to do is to condone Russian aggression. Excellent. And if and when it does happen, then maybe you will understand a bit better why the likes of Patreon cutting off support for the defenders is effectively taking sides. It doesn't cost Patreon anything to pass on those funds. But fine, if they want to take sides then that's cool with me, they just made it to my shitlist, not a cent through their company, ever.

jacquesm 5y ago

> Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. You could, but it would be bullshit. > But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did.

Sebb767 5y ago
> You could, but it would be bullshit. In your (our) opinion. But that does not make it an absolute truth. > If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did. And that's why I ended my post with: >> It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". I don't think that turning the other cheek is the right move here. My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > But that does not make it an absolute truth. There we have that false balance thing again. It's documented bullshit, so you can choose to just see it as my opinion, but NATO has a couple of articles formulated especially to deal with aggression like this. To posit that joining an alliance - which didn't happen, another simple fact - because you are afraid of your aggressive neighbor is the cause of the aggression is a pretty extreme form of victim blaming. > My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys. Believe me, I'm a pacifist at heart. And what's happening now in Ukraine (and prior to that in Chechnya) makes my blood boil. I've seen first hand what life under Russia looks like, there is no way this is going to be whitewashed.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > I've seen first hand what life under Russia looks like, there is no way this is going to be whitewashed. I'm really not trying to whitewash anything. I have friends in the Ukraine and I'm fearing for their live right now - and, to be honest, a bit for mine, since this conflict is really close to escalating near my actual home. The last thing I want to do is to condone Russian aggression. My point is that it's really easy to get lost once you accept violence as good. So I can absolutely understand why Patreon chooses to stay neutral in a war, even if it's for (what we see as _and probably is_) the right side. Violence might sometimes be necessary, but it's never a "not bad" thing, especially since it's easy to see oneself on the right side and be wrong about it - which does not mean I think Russia is in any way right here, just to be very clear. And I think we both agree that the aggression in the Ukraine is both wrong horrible and that violence is generally a bad thing, just to state the obvious - which is probably why we don't get anywhere with this discussion.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > My point is that it's really easy to get lost once you accept violence as good. I don't think any normal person believes that violence is good. It's the last option on the table. But it is an option. > and, to be honest, a bit for mine, since this conflict is really close to escalating near my actual home. The last thing I want to do is to condone Russian aggression. Excellent. And if and when it does happen, then maybe you will understand a bit better why the likes of Patreon cutting off support for the defenders is effectively taking sides. It doesn't cost Patreon anything to pass on those funds. But fine, if they want to take sides then that's cool with me, they just made it to my shitlist, not a cent through their company, ever.