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> sanctions implemented by the EU and the US, and they are a joke, since EU continues to import gas from Russia Arguably, gas is of military value, so maybe it

by Chris2048 5y ago

> sanctions implemented by the EU and the US, and they are a joke, since EU continues to import gas from Russia Arguably, gas is of military value, so maybe it's more advantageous to allow Russia to have the money and have the gas than the other way around. Depends on if the money goes towards other armaments - but I'm sure Russia has plenty of those in any case. That said, why wouldn't Russia stop selling? Hmmm. > ex-president of the United States openly praising the Russian president on the media > US TV networks openly doing the treasonous job of promoting Russian views in the US Can you clarify, I feel there might be a dubious definition of 'praising' and 'promoting' at play here.

belter 5y ago
I mean the Russian agents of disinformation and Russian money, as always, is at work behind enemy lines, in this case in the US. You had US military and ex-military, doing work for Russian's since the 2014 Obama administration. That explains a lot of what has emboldened Russia. "Trump being advised by ex-U.S. Lieutenant General who favors closer Russia ties" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-advisor-idUSKCN0VZ2ZB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-adviso... "Michael Flynn—Once Indicted Over Russia Communication—Voices Support For Russia Ahead Of Potential Ukraine Invasion" https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/24/michael-flynn-once-indicted-over-russia-communication---voices-support-for-russia-ahead-of-potential-ukraine-invasion/?sh=33445c7a6bd5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/24/michael-fl...
- Chris2048 5y ago
  That Op-ed is shocking TBH, is discredits Flynn as an advisor. However I think you still need more to back up the accusation of Flynn, let alone Trump, being a (compromised) Russian asset. There seemed to be a lot of politicking around his prosecution, for example (complicated by the fact that these kind of coercive plea-deal threats are actually common in the US). Also, The headline is partially (but not entirely) manipulative in describing the op-ed as "Support For Russia" - it sound like a whole lot of shilling, esp the stuff justifying Russian opposition to NATO and border fortification, but it's not wholly supporting it either; the fact they cram the incitement into the headline shows what message they are trying to convey. But I think the other stuff (Flynn in Trump admin) is old-news; Biden administration had also talked of better diplomatic ties with Russia recently, before the invasion started. Dems have been somewhat more pro-China than Trump also, and I'm somewhat hesitant to distinguish being "pro-China" vs "pro-Russia"; both are strong mutual allies, at least in backing each other up both in terms of resources and PR.
  - belter 5y ago
    You missed the detail that Flynn was pardoned....of talking to the Russian ambassador and lying about it, to US law enforcement.
    - Chris2048 5y ago
      I didn't. Also, could you respond in full e.g. "Flynn was pardoned by Trump, meaning that..." so I don't have to guess what you mean. EDIT: ok it was done, thanks. Although I'd add he was caught not disclosing talking to an ambassador (he is afaik allowed to do so), and then accused of lying about it to the FBI. Per my post, there was a lot of politicking in that incitement that by itself would have justified the pardon. TBH, I just don't know - which is what I mean by "politicking"; The more I read the more I feel I'm either missing something, or fed mis-information or a skewed perspective. There was a whole thing about altered or manipulated notes during the Flynn incitement - yet Wikipedia page for Flynn barely mentions it, or McCabe, and McCabe's page mention his firing (which he says was based on an attempt to discredit him) but barely mentions Flynn.. Was that important? Was the DOJ justified in dropping charges, or was Barr corrupt? Was the Pardon justified given the FBIs shady tactics (although shady tactics might be their modus-operandi..), or not? Or maybe the pardon was more motivated by Flynn being "inner-circle" than anything FBI or Russia based. I just don't know.
      - belter 5y ago
        What politicking there is, on a active and retired US military travelling to Russian since 2013, having high level contacts with the Russian government, and then lying about it, to its own country Law enforcement? https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1015126/download https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1015126/download
        Chris2048 5y ago
        Again, these characterisations are easy. They are made on both sides. I can construct a similar line about the FBI incitement, casually throwing in disputed or hard-to-verify facts. I'd pick you up on "lying about it" - I consider the FBI to be heavily politically active, esp in the Trump/Comey times, so describing them as "law enforcement" in these situations is misleading. I added detail to my previous comment, but I don't really trust the outcome of an incitement where the FBI held all the cards - you get the same thing when people accept one-sided plea deals from the police - "they even admitted they did it". There's a whole lot of context around this. For example, you can characterise the FBI as simply "Law enforcement", but you could characterise the DOJ-under-Barr the same. If you have reason to doubt/discredit the DOJ, them you should equally allow for the same wrt the FBI-under-Comey.

belter 5y ago

I mean the Russian agents of disinformation and Russian money, as always, is at work behind enemy lines, in this case in the US. You had US military and ex-military, doing work for Russian's since the 2014 Obama administration. That explains a lot of what has emboldened Russia. "Trump being advised by ex-U.S. Lieutenant General who favors closer Russia ties" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-advisor-idUSKCN0VZ2ZB https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-adviso... "Michael Flynn—Once Indicted Over Russia Communication—Voices Support For Russia Ahead Of Potential Ukraine Invasion" https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/24/michael-flynn-once-indicted-over-russia-communication---voices-support-for-russia-ahead-of-potential-ukraine-invasion/?sh=33445c7a6bd5 https://www.forbes.com/sites/dereksaul/2022/01/24/michael-fl...

Chris2048 5y ago
That Op-ed is shocking TBH, is discredits Flynn as an advisor. However I think you still need more to back up the accusation of Flynn, let alone Trump, being a (compromised) Russian asset. There seemed to be a lot of politicking around his prosecution, for example (complicated by the fact that these kind of coercive plea-deal threats are actually common in the US). Also, The headline is partially (but not entirely) manipulative in describing the op-ed as "Support For Russia" - it sound like a whole lot of shilling, esp the stuff justifying Russian opposition to NATO and border fortification, but it's not wholly supporting it either; the fact they cram the incitement into the headline shows what message they are trying to convey. But I think the other stuff (Flynn in Trump admin) is old-news; Biden administration had also talked of better diplomatic ties with Russia recently, before the invasion started. Dems have been somewhat more pro-China than Trump also, and I'm somewhat hesitant to distinguish being "pro-China" vs "pro-Russia"; both are strong mutual allies, at least in backing each other up both in terms of resources and PR.
- belter 5y ago
  You missed the detail that Flynn was pardoned....of talking to the Russian ambassador and lying about it, to US law enforcement.
  - Chris2048 5y ago
    I didn't. Also, could you respond in full e.g. "Flynn was pardoned by Trump, meaning that..." so I don't have to guess what you mean. EDIT: ok it was done, thanks. Although I'd add he was caught not disclosing talking to an ambassador (he is afaik allowed to do so), and then accused of lying about it to the FBI. Per my post, there was a lot of politicking in that incitement that by itself would have justified the pardon. TBH, I just don't know - which is what I mean by "politicking"; The more I read the more I feel I'm either missing something, or fed mis-information or a skewed perspective. There was a whole thing about altered or manipulated notes during the Flynn incitement - yet Wikipedia page for Flynn barely mentions it, or McCabe, and McCabe's page mention his firing (which he says was based on an attempt to discredit him) but barely mentions Flynn.. Was that important? Was the DOJ justified in dropping charges, or was Barr corrupt? Was the Pardon justified given the FBIs shady tactics (although shady tactics might be their modus-operandi..), or not? Or maybe the pardon was more motivated by Flynn being "inner-circle" than anything FBI or Russia based. I just don't know.
    - belter 5y ago
      What politicking there is, on a active and retired US military travelling to Russian since 2013, having high level contacts with the Russian government, and then lying about it, to its own country Law enforcement? https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1015126/download https://www.justice.gov/archives/sco/file/1015126/download
      - Chris2048 5y ago
        Again, these characterisations are easy. They are made on both sides. I can construct a similar line about the FBI incitement, casually throwing in disputed or hard-to-verify facts. I'd pick you up on "lying about it" - I consider the FBI to be heavily politically active, esp in the Trump/Comey times, so describing them as "law enforcement" in these situations is misleading. I added detail to my previous comment, but I don't really trust the outcome of an incitement where the FBI held all the cards - you get the same thing when people accept one-sided plea deals from the police - "they even admitted they did it". There's a whole lot of context around this. For example, you can characterise the FBI as simply "Law enforcement", but you could characterise the DOJ-under-Barr the same. If you have reason to doubt/discredit the DOJ, them you should equally allow for the same wrt the FBI-under-Comey.