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> when in this specific situation violence is maybe not bad. I'm pretty sure Russia would say the same thing if you ask them about their situation. That's the

> when in this specific situation violence is maybe not bad. I'm pretty sure Russia would say the same thing if you ask them about their situation. That's the problem once you bring in subjectivity. That being said, tolerating the account for a few more days would've probably been a better play. EDIT: Just to be very clear, I'm not condoning Russian aggression in any way. My point is that not funding a war is an acceptable choice, since it's very easy to be wrong and a sure way to bring human suffering.

jacquesm 5y ago
- Sebb767 5y ago
  Well, from their point of view, a military pact with the explicit goal of keeping them under control has first taken their land and is now threatening to get even closer to their border and encircle them. Just take a look at the Cuban missile crisis to see how the US reacted in a comparable situation and in that case, the distance from the missiles to the capital was a lot longer. For Russia, this is more like the missiles are already in Cuba and now Mexico is considering to join the Warsaw pact. Everyone thinks they're on the right side. Now, obviously I think we (as in EU+US) are the good guys here, but it's quite clear that a lot of people were both very convinced and very wrong about this and I don't consider us unfailable.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    > Everyone thinks they're on the right side. In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. > Now, obviously I think we (as in EU+US) are the good guys here, but it's quite clear that a lot of people were both very convinced and very wrong about this and I don't consider us unfailable. Indeed. But this isn't the Cuban missile crisis (which was provoked by the USSR to begin with) and the Ukraine isn't anything like Cuba. Note that Cuba was - in spite of everything - never actually invaded with the intent to occupy, and it's not as if the US couldn't have done that if they had wanted to do so.
    - Sebb767 5y ago
      > In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. Just as large numbers of US citizens disagreed with the wars of the last decades. > Indeed. But this isn't the Cuban missile crisis (which was provoked by the USSR to begin with) and the Ukraine isn't anything like Cuba. Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad".
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        > Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. You could, but it would be bullshit. > But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did.
        Sebb767 5y ago
        > You could, but it would be bullshit. In your (our) opinion. But that does not make it an absolute truth. > If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did. And that's why I ended my post with: >> It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". I don't think that turning the other cheek is the right move here. My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys.
  - mopsi 5y ago
    What missiles? There are no missiles in Eastern Europe, only a symbolic number of foreign soldiers, and even that only after the first war in Ukraine.
    - glogla 5y ago
      "Mexico joining Warsaw Pact / China" and "NATO Missiles" are common Russian propaganda talking points. When someone says those words, you know they are compromised - either willingly working for the enemy of free world, or manipulated into doing it. ("Russian sphere of influence" is another sign of Soviet-thinking, as is talking about "Ukrainian Nazis".)
      - trasz 5y ago
        “Compromised”, as in, they don’t blindly follow your propaganda?
- Uehreka 5y ago
  Yeah, I see this kind of sentiment everywhere these days. Just because people disagree about things doesn’t mean it’s a subjective issue you can just wash your hands of. Sometimes you just have to dive in, figure out who’s right (or less wrong) and hope your assessment is correct. It sucks if you’re the kind of person who wants to never be wrong, but the adult world is messy, we often can’t afford that luxury.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    There is this thing called 'False Balance' of which this is a specific example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance
    - emptysongglass 5y ago
      Thank you. I was wondering if there was a term for this. It is, in my opinion, the most caustic force across public places of discourse today. Humans seem to have an overriding need to "balance the books", perhaps to avoid conflict with their peers or presume logical conclusion must hold two sides in equal reverence. There is nothing fair about this rape of a country, no feebly concocted realpolitik to soberly justify the murder of hundreds and soon thousands of people who want to live free of an abusive parent.
- herbst 5y ago
  There is war in the Ukraine for 8 years now. 14k deaths, including many civilians. Plus a lot of human right violations from the Ukraine government. Nothing is as black and white as some want it to be.
pornel 5y ago
This is why trying "both sides" or staying "neutral" on every issue doesn't make sense. > If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor — Desmond Tutu

jacquesm 5y ago

Sebb767 5y ago
Well, from their point of view, a military pact with the explicit goal of keeping them under control has first taken their land and is now threatening to get even closer to their border and encircle them. Just take a look at the Cuban missile crisis to see how the US reacted in a comparable situation and in that case, the distance from the missiles to the capital was a lot longer. For Russia, this is more like the missiles are already in Cuba and now Mexico is considering to join the Warsaw pact. Everyone thinks they're on the right side. Now, obviously I think we (as in EU+US) are the good guys here, but it's quite clear that a lot of people were both very convinced and very wrong about this and I don't consider us unfailable.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  > Everyone thinks they're on the right side. In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. > Now, obviously I think we (as in EU+US) are the good guys here, but it's quite clear that a lot of people were both very convinced and very wrong about this and I don't consider us unfailable. Indeed. But this isn't the Cuban missile crisis (which was provoked by the USSR to begin with) and the Ukraine isn't anything like Cuba. Note that Cuba was - in spite of everything - never actually invaded with the intent to occupy, and it's not as if the US couldn't have done that if they had wanted to do so.
  - Sebb767 5y ago
    > In this case that has been made pretty easy to see. Even large numbers of Russians agree with that. Just as large numbers of US citizens disagreed with the wars of the last decades. > Indeed. But this isn't the Cuban missile crisis (which was provoked by the USSR to begin with) and the Ukraine isn't anything like Cuba. Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad".
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      > Well, you could argue that the EU/NATO expansion did provoke this, too. You could, but it would be bullshit. > But I'm getting distracted here; I really don't want to defend Russia and especially not their recent actions. I also don't think that helping the Ukraine is a bad thing, quite the opposite actually. My point is that you don't get to both condone violence and keep your status as "peaceful" because it's against the right people. If German history has taught me anything, it's that accepting violence as right leads down a very bad path quickly. It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did.
      - Sebb767 5y ago
        > You could, but it would be bullshit. In your (our) opinion. But that does not make it an absolute truth. > If you really had paid attention to German history you would have realized that sometimes violence is the only way to deal with an emerging threat. It is precisely the lack of decisive action that allowed Hitler the space to do what he did. And that's why I ended my post with: >> It might sometimes be necessary, but it's never "not bad". I don't think that turning the other cheek is the right move here. My point is that we don't get to feel good about violence because it's against the right guys.
- mopsi 5y ago
  What missiles? There are no missiles in Eastern Europe, only a symbolic number of foreign soldiers, and even that only after the first war in Ukraine.
  - glogla 5y ago
    "Mexico joining Warsaw Pact / China" and "NATO Missiles" are common Russian propaganda talking points. When someone says those words, you know they are compromised - either willingly working for the enemy of free world, or manipulated into doing it. ("Russian sphere of influence" is another sign of Soviet-thinking, as is talking about "Ukrainian Nazis".)
    - trasz 5y ago
      “Compromised”, as in, they don’t blindly follow your propaganda?
Uehreka 5y ago
Yeah, I see this kind of sentiment everywhere these days. Just because people disagree about things doesn’t mean it’s a subjective issue you can just wash your hands of. Sometimes you just have to dive in, figure out who’s right (or less wrong) and hope your assessment is correct. It sucks if you’re the kind of person who wants to never be wrong, but the adult world is messy, we often can’t afford that luxury.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  There is this thing called 'False Balance' of which this is a specific example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_balance
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    Thank you. I was wondering if there was a term for this. It is, in my opinion, the most caustic force across public places of discourse today. Humans seem to have an overriding need to "balance the books", perhaps to avoid conflict with their peers or presume logical conclusion must hold two sides in equal reverence. There is nothing fair about this rape of a country, no feebly concocted realpolitik to soberly justify the murder of hundreds and soon thousands of people who want to live free of an abusive parent.
herbst 5y ago
There is war in the Ukraine for 8 years now. 14k deaths, including many civilians. Plus a lot of human right violations from the Ukraine government. Nothing is as black and white as some want it to be.

pornel 5y ago

This is why trying "both sides" or staying "neutral" on every issue doesn't make sense. > If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor — Desmond Tutu