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I'm no expert on this stuff, but I don't get the partisan nature of this Ukraine Russia debate at all. Putting aside the politics of what side the US governmen

I'm no expert on this stuff, but I don't get the partisan nature of this Ukraine Russia debate at all. Putting aside the politics of what side the US government is on... It seems very equivalent to me to when some southern states declared secession from the northern states (in 1860), there was a civil war. To Russians, Ukraine is integral to them and their identity, even if that has been the case since 1991 (a situation forced on Russia at the time). So, if we can leave the politics aside, accepting that there are institutions such as countries etc, what would be the right thing here? Why should Western countries even involve themselves in this? I mean - Russia certainly is going to roll over Ukraine - how does it help anyone to arm them - isn't it just inviting more retaliation - isn't it making a bad problem even worse?

trymas 5y ago
You are incorrect on so many levels - I have no idea where to begin. Ukraine is a sovereign state independent from russia. russia dreams about soviet union comeback. Some countries are out of reach now, e.g. Baltic states which became EU and NATO members. After russians being assholes to their neighbours for decades (if not centuries) - some neighbours decided that it's time to leave abusive relationship. To russia Ukraine is integral only for couple of things - land buffer from the west influence, land bridge to the black sea (Crimea). Ukrainians see how russia abuses them (e.g. frequent embargoes or price jumps for gas, and other tightly coupled economical relations they are not allowed to escape) and attempts to leave this. That's a deep blow to russia and their maniac dictator cannot allow this. F For ages - instead of russia attempting to build proper strong and attractive economy are using force on their small neighbours. I think every single neighbor of russia (or russian empire or soviet union) was either at war or occupied in previous 100 or 200 years. Neighbouring nations (the people, not the politicians or greedy oligarchs) are attempting to flee russian influence zone, due to constant economic pressure and imminent danger. russia now attempts to paint this as "NATO expansion" or "US imperialism", but they are just old-school bully.
- verisimi 5y ago
  Hmm.. I think you're stuck in the idea that there are good and bad actors, that this stuff isn't propaganda, that it's not just about power, all of it bad... I'm sure if you're in Russia the exact opposite arguments are being made, and make sense to their citizens. My point really is that - to an outsider with no dog in the race - if you take a long view, it seems equivalent to the US civil war. What you just said, couldn't you equate Russia/Ukraine to US/southern states?
  - trymas 5y ago
    your comparison is just wrong. Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation _de facto_ and _de jure_, recognized by probably every single country in the world including the aggressor russia to. Why you thing I have "a dog in this race"? It's just old-school war, russia does not know how to use it's soft diplomatic power. It's threats all the time, and when Ukraine does not give up on idea to westernise for at least 8 years - russia treat is a threat - thus they invade. If I'd compare - I'd compare it to Winter War. When WW2 started - they saw that Finland is too close to St.Peterbug for russias comfort - thus they started the war. Same here - Ukraine wants to free themselves from post-soviet economy and modernise to western model, it's a threat to putin - because then the "western" economical and political borders will be too close for his comfort.
    - verisimi 5y ago
      I guess Russia is just an unprincipled undiplomatic, evil-doing, rogue country. Thank God not all nations are like that!!

trymas 5y ago

You are incorrect on so many levels - I have no idea where to begin. Ukraine is a sovereign state independent from russia. russia dreams about soviet union comeback. Some countries are out of reach now, e.g. Baltic states which became EU and NATO members. After russians being assholes to their neighbours for decades (if not centuries) - some neighbours decided that it's time to leave abusive relationship. To russia Ukraine is integral only for couple of things - land buffer from the west influence, land bridge to the black sea (Crimea). Ukrainians see how russia abuses them (e.g. frequent embargoes or price jumps for gas, and other tightly coupled economical relations they are not allowed to escape) and attempts to leave this. That's a deep blow to russia and their maniac dictator cannot allow this. F For ages - instead of russia attempting to build proper strong and attractive economy are using force on their small neighbours. I think every single neighbor of russia (or russian empire or soviet union) was either at war or occupied in previous 100 or 200 years. Neighbouring nations (the people, not the politicians or greedy oligarchs) are attempting to flee russian influence zone, due to constant economic pressure and imminent danger. russia now attempts to paint this as "NATO expansion" or "US imperialism", but they are just old-school bully.

verisimi 5y ago
Hmm.. I think you're stuck in the idea that there are good and bad actors, that this stuff isn't propaganda, that it's not just about power, all of it bad... I'm sure if you're in Russia the exact opposite arguments are being made, and make sense to their citizens. My point really is that - to an outsider with no dog in the race - if you take a long view, it seems equivalent to the US civil war. What you just said, couldn't you equate Russia/Ukraine to US/southern states?
- trymas 5y ago
  your comparison is just wrong. Ukraine is an independent sovereign nation _de facto_ and _de jure_, recognized by probably every single country in the world including the aggressor russia to. Why you thing I have "a dog in this race"? It's just old-school war, russia does not know how to use it's soft diplomatic power. It's threats all the time, and when Ukraine does not give up on idea to westernise for at least 8 years - russia treat is a threat - thus they invade. If I'd compare - I'd compare it to Winter War. When WW2 started - they saw that Finland is too close to St.Peterbug for russias comfort - thus they started the war. Same here - Ukraine wants to free themselves from post-soviet economy and modernise to western model, it's a threat to putin - because then the "western" economical and political borders will be too close for his comfort.
  - verisimi 5y ago
    I guess Russia is just an unprincipled undiplomatic, evil-doing, rogue country. Thank God not all nations are like that!!