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Russia's interests aren't threatened by Ukraine in any way. Putin's interests are; every successful democracy on his border is a model that threatens his rule.

by roca 5y ago

Russia's interests aren't threatened by Ukraine in any way. Putin's interests are; every successful democracy on his border is a model that threatens his rule. The USA is far from perfect, but nearly all the interventions you listed were much more justified than what Putin is offering: the explicit aim of securing Ukraine as part of a new Russian empire, regardless of their will. (E.g. Afghanistan was a base for an attack on the USA; there was ethnic cleansing in Kosovo that needed to be stopped; populations in Syria do need to be protected. On the other hand as Devereaux points out, there isn't even a plurality of people in Donetsk and Luhansk in favour of secession, and Ukraine hadn't gone on the offensive against the separatists.) The argument "the USA has done bad things; therefore we should turn a blind eye when anyone does any bad thing" is total nonsense.

EGreg 5y ago
Rather the opposite: neither Russia nor USA should attack others who do not pose a threat to them. Stronger nations should listen to the concerns of others and meet to address them. Zelensky should have listened to Donbas separatists and met to address them (Minsk agreements) Russia should have listened to the Ukrainian democratically elected government and met to address them And yes, NATO should have listened to Putin and other Russian officials saying over and for years about the bright lines, and should have listened to internal voices including the architects of the USSR containment strategy WARNING about NATO expansion, and realized they should invite Russia into NATO. No one listens because of the apparatus within their country, and the idea that cities do not have self-determination, only countries do. People believe in their flag so much because of mass media and government schools, they are willing to kill and be killed for it. But if you look at a time-lapse of most places on the globe, you’ll see flags changing so quickly that you wonder what is the big deal. Most people if left alone would just earn money and raise their families.
- drran 5y ago
  Currently, Ukraine hear cryings of Russian soldiers, when they are burning in their armor. We hear them very well. Mission accomplished?
  - EGreg 5y ago
    I wish nothing but peace and prosperity to the people of Ukraine. Every city should be able to choose what country it belongs to, periodically. These nationalities are making people go crazy killing each other for a flag to fly over a specific territory. Most of the local populations are radicalized using mass media or government schools. It’s sad to see. My developers are in Ukraine and Russia and I attended one of their weddings in Chernovtsy a few years ago. We all work together and we don’t want to kill each other. I’m in the USA. The vast majority regular people would not want their country killing anyone in their name. They’re just fed propaganda about how benign their country’s actions are, and how bad the “other guys” are. Take Crimea for example. It is majority Russian because Stalin deported the vast majority of Crimean Tatars because many of their men fought against USSR in WW2. Ethnic cleansing. Then Khustchev just gifted Crimea to Ukraine for no apparent reason. But when they had a referendum they voted to rejoin Russia. In an ideal world, no one would give a shit what flag flies over Crimea. They could vote every 4 years to be 80% Russian and 20% Ukranian. By removing the need to choose a discrete variable, you’d eliminate almost all conflicts between separatists and imperialists. Catalonia vs Spain. Basques vs France. Kurds vs Turkey. But no. People need to fight for what flag flies over that territory…
    - drran 5y ago
      > It is majority Russian because Stalin deported the vast majority of Crimean Tatars because many of their men fought against USSR in WW2. IMHO, you are talking about Crimean Goths. They are speaking German dialect, so they were used by Germans as translators. Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Italians, are killed or deported just because their land was promised to soviet officers. Anyway, number of Crimean Goths participated with Germans (140) is minuscule in comparison to Russian Liberation Army (ROA) AKA Vlasov Army (3 millions). By your logic, all Russians must be punished for ROA crimes. BTW, they wear ROA flag even today.
      - EGreg 5y ago
        I think the Vlasov army was totally killed. USSR was brutal. World War 2 was extremely brutal - they lost 30 million people Anyway it is all war crimes, I totally agree ! I don’t know if it is “just” because Russian officers wanted their land. They already could get land through crooked courts easily. USSR was pissed at how rabidly some Ukrainians and others killed people when they sided with the Nazis. I am Jewish and two sisters of my grandma were brutally killed by Ukrainians (not Germans) while being under 10 years old. One German wanted to quietly save them but the Ukrainians wouldn’t let him. People want independence and appeal to have their rights, but during war time they can often abuse weaker people too a lot. As far as Tatars read the last two paragraphs here: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/krimchaks https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/krimchaks
- roca 5y ago
  But Ukraine hasn't joined NATO and until recently Ukrainian opinion was against it. Of course they very much want to join now, but that is a situation of Putin's own making. But anyway, I'm confused, because you're saying not only countries but cities should have self-determination, but ALSO Putin gets a veto over Ukrainian policy?
- lern_too_spel 5y ago
  Your concerns about Donbas are addressed in the very article you are commenting on.

by roca 5y ago

EGreg 5y ago

Rather the opposite: neither Russia nor USA should attack others who do not pose a threat to them. Stronger nations should listen to the concerns of others and meet to address them. Zelensky should have listened to Donbas separatists and met to address them (Minsk agreements) Russia should have listened to the Ukrainian democratically elected government and met to address them And yes, NATO should have listened to Putin and other Russian officials saying over and for years about the bright lines, and should have listened to internal voices including the architects of the USSR containment strategy WARNING about NATO expansion, and realized they should invite Russia into NATO. No one listens because of the apparatus within their country, and the idea that cities do not have self-determination, only countries do. People believe in their flag so much because of mass media and government schools, they are willing to kill and be killed for it. But if you look at a time-lapse of most places on the globe, you’ll see flags changing so quickly that you wonder what is the big deal. Most people if left alone would just earn money and raise their families.

drran 5y ago
Currently, Ukraine hear cryings of Russian soldiers, when they are burning in their armor. We hear them very well. Mission accomplished?
- EGreg 5y ago
  I wish nothing but peace and prosperity to the people of Ukraine. Every city should be able to choose what country it belongs to, periodically. These nationalities are making people go crazy killing each other for a flag to fly over a specific territory. Most of the local populations are radicalized using mass media or government schools. It’s sad to see. My developers are in Ukraine and Russia and I attended one of their weddings in Chernovtsy a few years ago. We all work together and we don’t want to kill each other. I’m in the USA. The vast majority regular people would not want their country killing anyone in their name. They’re just fed propaganda about how benign their country’s actions are, and how bad the “other guys” are. Take Crimea for example. It is majority Russian because Stalin deported the vast majority of Crimean Tatars because many of their men fought against USSR in WW2. Ethnic cleansing. Then Khustchev just gifted Crimea to Ukraine for no apparent reason. But when they had a referendum they voted to rejoin Russia. In an ideal world, no one would give a shit what flag flies over Crimea. They could vote every 4 years to be 80% Russian and 20% Ukranian. By removing the need to choose a discrete variable, you’d eliminate almost all conflicts between separatists and imperialists. Catalonia vs Spain. Basques vs France. Kurds vs Turkey. But no. People need to fight for what flag flies over that territory…
  - drran 5y ago
    > It is majority Russian because Stalin deported the vast majority of Crimean Tatars because many of their men fought against USSR in WW2. IMHO, you are talking about Crimean Goths. They are speaking German dialect, so they were used by Germans as translators. Ukrainians, Crimean Tatars, Greeks, Italians, are killed or deported just because their land was promised to soviet officers. Anyway, number of Crimean Goths participated with Germans (140) is minuscule in comparison to Russian Liberation Army (ROA) AKA Vlasov Army (3 millions). By your logic, all Russians must be punished for ROA crimes. BTW, they wear ROA flag even today.
    - EGreg 5y ago
      I think the Vlasov army was totally killed. USSR was brutal. World War 2 was extremely brutal - they lost 30 million people Anyway it is all war crimes, I totally agree ! I don’t know if it is “just” because Russian officers wanted their land. They already could get land through crooked courts easily. USSR was pissed at how rabidly some Ukrainians and others killed people when they sided with the Nazis. I am Jewish and two sisters of my grandma were brutally killed by Ukrainians (not Germans) while being under 10 years old. One German wanted to quietly save them but the Ukrainians wouldn’t let him. People want independence and appeal to have their rights, but during war time they can often abuse weaker people too a lot. As far as Tatars read the last two paragraphs here: https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/krimchaks https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/krimchaks
roca 5y ago
But Ukraine hasn't joined NATO and until recently Ukrainian opinion was against it. Of course they very much want to join now, but that is a situation of Putin's own making. But anyway, I'm confused, because you're saying not only countries but cities should have self-determination, but ALSO Putin gets a veto over Ukrainian policy?
lern_too_spel 5y ago
Your concerns about Donbas are addressed in the very article you are commenting on.