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NATO has shown at least some willingness to fight wars of aggression. It's hard to paint the intervention in Yugoslavia in the 1990s as defence of an alliance m

NATO has shown at least some willingness to fight wars of aggression. It's hard to paint the intervention in Yugoslavia in the 1990s as defence of an alliance member, however justified it might have been by humanitarian concerns.

jacquesm 5y ago
NATO isn't a defensive alliance, period. It is a mutual security pact. Here is the actual treaty: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht... Article 4 is quite deliberately vaguely worded. And the treaty also explains why NATO only got involved in Libya after the UN requested it to.
- jolux 5y ago
  I can’t tell if you’re being pedantic here or if you actually substantially disagree with the characterization that it is primarily about the security of Europe against Russian aggression.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    That may have been what it was about a long time ago, and I think in light of the current developments that probably will be what it is about again in the present, but in the intermediary that was less strongly a factor than that it was 'The affluent West' against 'the rest'. Even the Yugoslavian war did not - though it almost happened - ended up pitting NATO against Russia, and I believe that if Russia had followed through on the reforms instead of turning into a Dictatorship/kleptocracy that they just might have joined NATO at some point.
    - rossmohax 5y ago
      Putin did ask to join NATO in early 2000s, was laughed out of the room.
      - jacquesm 5y ago
        Rightly so. Dictatorships have no place in modern NATO.
        zx85wes 5y ago
        Except it wasn't a dictatorship back then. https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/16293 https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/16293
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yeltsin named Putin as his successor, the writing was on the wall for much longer, besides little details such as the Chechen war.
        rossmohax 5y ago
        Putin was overall very open to the West early on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ
      - lupire 5y ago
        "ask" is quite overstating the case. There were some informal conversations between individuals.
vore 5y ago
That's completely fair, as well as intervention in Libya in 2011. I think though, for the intents of the states wanting to accede to it now, it serves as a form of defense for them.

jacquesm 5y ago

NATO isn't a defensive alliance, period. It is a mutual security pact. Here is the actual treaty: https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.htm https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/official_texts_17120.ht... Article 4 is quite deliberately vaguely worded. And the treaty also explains why NATO only got involved in Libya after the UN requested it to.

jolux 5y ago
I can’t tell if you’re being pedantic here or if you actually substantially disagree with the characterization that it is primarily about the security of Europe against Russian aggression.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  That may have been what it was about a long time ago, and I think in light of the current developments that probably will be what it is about again in the present, but in the intermediary that was less strongly a factor than that it was 'The affluent West' against 'the rest'. Even the Yugoslavian war did not - though it almost happened - ended up pitting NATO against Russia, and I believe that if Russia had followed through on the reforms instead of turning into a Dictatorship/kleptocracy that they just might have joined NATO at some point.
  - rossmohax 5y ago
    Putin did ask to join NATO in early 2000s, was laughed out of the room.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Rightly so. Dictatorships have no place in modern NATO.
      - zx85wes 5y ago
        Except it wasn't a dictatorship back then. https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/16293 https://www.osce.org/odihr/elections/russia/16293
        jacquesm 5y ago
        Yeltsin named Putin as his successor, the writing was on the wall for much longer, besides little details such as the Chechen war.
      - rossmohax 5y ago
        Putin was overall very open to the West early on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X7Ng75e5gQ
    - lupire 5y ago
      "ask" is quite overstating the case. There were some informal conversations between individuals.

vore 5y ago

That's completely fair, as well as intervention in Libya in 2011. I think though, for the intents of the states wanting to accede to it now, it serves as a form of defense for them.