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> the responsibility that the US bears on this conflict cannot be underestimated, and it is totally absent (or at least severely under-reported) from Western so

by dvt 5y ago

> the responsibility that the US bears on this conflict cannot be underestimated, and it is totally absent (or at least severely under-reported) from Western sources. Either we agree that countries have sovereignty and can enter whatever pacts they so please or we do not. You can't have it both ways. NATO is an alliance that Baltic nations joined of their own accord. The US doesn't even enter the picture here.

ailef 5y ago
> Either we agree that countries have sovereignty and can enter whatever pacts they so please or we do not. I completely agree. The problem is that for the past 70 years or more, this has not been like the US has behaved. They set the historical precedent that it's ok to respect other countries sovereignty if and only if said country aligns with your own interests. When that's not the case, it's fine to overthrow the government to make it more "democratic".
rossmohax 5y ago
Do countries have sovereignty to develop Nuclear weapon? No, because big boys club sees it as a threat and it is understandable. If some power sees actions of another country as a threat, sovereignty becomes more nuanced.
- dvt 5y ago
  Nuclear weapons are a special case because they threaten the survival of the human race (you can probably throw certain chemical/biological weapons in here too). Joining NATO--not that the Ukraine was even doing that--does not. There's a material difference here.
  - rossmohax 5y ago
    Smallish country developing nuclear warhead wont threaten survival of the human race. It wont have neither enough warheads nor sufficient delivery capabilities, yet no country is allowed to enter nuclear club, because existing members sees it as threat and have means to enforce their will. Ukraine joining NATO is same in principle: a threat to someone who is willing to act on it. > Joining NATO--not that the Ukraine was even doing that Ukraine was actively seeking NATO membership since 2014, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
    - ailef 5y ago
      And even before that, in 2008, at the Bucharest NATO meeting there were talks about including Georgia and Ukraine into NATO.
env123 5y ago
The US clearly enters the picture here if they are willing to supply weapons to the Ukrainians. That is a justified security concern from Russia's perspective
fellellor 5y ago
So there is no Munroe doctrine in place? Cuba has the right to station nuclear weapons? The hypocrisy of any great power is mind boggling and it’s sad to see individuals buy into that.

by dvt 5y ago

ailef 5y ago

> Either we agree that countries have sovereignty and can enter whatever pacts they so please or we do not. I completely agree. The problem is that for the past 70 years or more, this has not been like the US has behaved. They set the historical precedent that it's ok to respect other countries sovereignty if and only if said country aligns with your own interests. When that's not the case, it's fine to overthrow the government to make it more "democratic".

rossmohax 5y ago

Do countries have sovereignty to develop Nuclear weapon? No, because big boys club sees it as a threat and it is understandable. If some power sees actions of another country as a threat, sovereignty becomes more nuanced.

dvt 5y ago
Nuclear weapons are a special case because they threaten the survival of the human race (you can probably throw certain chemical/biological weapons in here too). Joining NATO--not that the Ukraine was even doing that--does not. There's a material difference here.
- rossmohax 5y ago
  Smallish country developing nuclear warhead wont threaten survival of the human race. It wont have neither enough warheads nor sufficient delivery capabilities, yet no country is allowed to enter nuclear club, because existing members sees it as threat and have means to enforce their will. Ukraine joining NATO is same in principle: a threat to someone who is willing to act on it. > Joining NATO--not that the Ukraine was even doing that Ukraine was actively seeking NATO membership since 2014, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
  - ailef 5y ago
    And even before that, in 2008, at the Bucharest NATO meeting there were talks about including Georgia and Ukraine into NATO.

env123 5y ago

The US clearly enters the picture here if they are willing to supply weapons to the Ukrainians. That is a justified security concern from Russia's perspective

fellellor 5y ago

So there is no Munroe doctrine in place? Cuba has the right to station nuclear weapons? The hypocrisy of any great power is mind boggling and it’s sad to see individuals buy into that.