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It's not really an easy situation. There were many complications even with states like Greece, Turkey, and (North) Macedonia. I cannot imagine what Poland and t

It's not really an easy situation. There were many complications even with states like Greece, Turkey, and (North) Macedonia. I cannot imagine what Poland and the other formerly occupied states would do if Russia were invited. At the end of the day, NATO was created to counter the USSR. When the USSR collapsed, we had an opening to integrate Russia, and we squandered it. That was the real opportunity.

jacquesm 5y ago
A Russia under a dictator has no place in NATO.
- EGreg 5y ago
  Would you be willing to risk nuclear armaggeddon for pedantic principles of NATO membership? I’d gladly violate them to literally eliminate a whole host of terrible scenarios once and for all. George W Bush wasn’t a “dictator” but he and his inner circle got us into the war in Iraq which destroyed huge swaths of the middle east. Perhaps in practice, the US President can wreak just as much if not more havoc than a Russian one?
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Ah, the good old 'if you don't do what we want you to do we'll nuke you' argument. Let me know what borders for the renewed USSR you find acceptable. Should they include Poland? Maybe former East Germany or France perhaps?
    - EGreg 5y ago
      None. Just invite Russia into NATO. Why not? Pride? Cant sell as many weapons anymore? I think many war hawks in the West just want to cut Russia down to size, one less “superpower” to worry about. If it is invited into NATO them the whole raison d’etre of NATO kind of disappears: the big bad enemy is only Russia.
      - drran 5y ago
        Don't worry. Territories of Russian Federation will join the NATO.
        EGreg 5y ago
        Yes, that’s what many people want. To just break up the Russian federation, they hate that it’s so big. Personally, I don’t care too much for imperialism. But we all know how well USA or China would react to secession. USA’s bloodiest was began to “preserve the union”. EU and USSR was actually kind of nice to have a way to let some members secede.
      - mopsi 5y ago
        NATO is not Russia, members don't get included against their will. To become a member, a country must apply and agree to settle disputes using peaceful means. Does not look like Russia has any interest in that.
        EGreg 5y ago
        It looks to me like Russia has interest in that. Russia has been bringing up its geopolitical security concerns and bright lines consistently for years and no one in NATO cared enough to “appease” them in any lasting way. It called on Ukraine for years to continue talks w the separatists based on the Minsk agreements but they didn’t. What peaceful means does Russia have available to them? They had a referendum in Crimea where no one was killed — seems far more peaceful than USA or China, the other two “superpowers”. What if USA agrees to settle disputes using peaceful means but then, ya know, just goes and bullies people? It is a founding member of NATO. What should Russia do if Georgia is massacring separatists in Ossetia? (Similar situation to Ukraine.) Just stand by and watch? Should Georgia be inducted into NATO but Russia not? What should anyone do if Pakistan is massacring separtists in Bangladesh? Just curious what is the standard really for when a country should intervene.
        mopsi 5y ago
        > It called on Ukraine for years to continue talks w the separatists Come on, man. This is such bullshit it's just insulting. How many "separatists" will there be left after Russia stops paying their wages?
  - roca 5y ago
    Russia in NATO would by no means "literally eliminate a whole host of terrible scenarios". Putin would still be in power, in fact he'd probably have swallowed up more territory by now using his ability to paralyze NATO, and he'd be no less likely to use nukes than he is today.
    - EGreg 5y ago
      I have not seen Russia post-USSR be interested in expanding and swallowing territory. Rather, I have seen them try to hold on to what they have, as more and more republics want to secede. We all know how USA dealt with secession… I honestly think Russia is motivated only by NATO being a long term geopolitical existential threat. And what it sees as the wresting of its allies by “the West”. Honestly, seeing how nations fare after trusting the USA (eg Kurds) I can’t really blame them for that. What I do blame them for is sucking at public dialogue and messaging and then lashing out militarily. I blame the USA and others for that last part too. But at least the USA is good at meesaging so people know what we are concerned about. Remember, after all, this is the prevailing sentiment around the world every year: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... (I bet that poll will change this year, though)
      - roca 5y ago
        South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Donetsk, and Luhansk weren't part of Russia post-USSR. > And what it sees as the wresting of its allies by “the West”. Honestly, seeing how nations fare after trusting the USA (eg Kurds) I can’t really blame them for that. I think the USA treated the Kurds poorly, but how is that relevant to this? The Baltics were eager to join NATO and are very happy they did. Are you arguing that Russia invaded Ukraine so that they wouldn't join NATO and be treated badly by America in the future?
        EGreg 5y ago
        Honestly I think it’s basically a combination of four things at once: Separatists overreacting to news of civil war in Odessa and moving to declare independence from Ukraine Kyiv blowing the separatists out of proportion and sending its army in a protracted siege war against them instead of sitting down based on Minsk agreements Putin blowing the “fascist Kyiv government genociding Russians” thing out of proportion and sending his army in a blitzkrieg to destroy Ukrainian capabilities instead of sitting down with Zelenskiy’s government at the highest levels NATO ignoring Russia’s repeated concerns over the years about expansion and surrounding it with the same kind of thing that made JFK ready to go to war during the Cuban missile crisis Basically on every level, sending an army backfires. Better to just not react with violence and use diplomacy. But seems that cooler heads do NOT prevail

jacquesm 5y ago

A Russia under a dictator has no place in NATO.

EGreg 5y ago
Would you be willing to risk nuclear armaggeddon for pedantic principles of NATO membership? I’d gladly violate them to literally eliminate a whole host of terrible scenarios once and for all. George W Bush wasn’t a “dictator” but he and his inner circle got us into the war in Iraq which destroyed huge swaths of the middle east. Perhaps in practice, the US President can wreak just as much if not more havoc than a Russian one?
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Ah, the good old 'if you don't do what we want you to do we'll nuke you' argument. Let me know what borders for the renewed USSR you find acceptable. Should they include Poland? Maybe former East Germany or France perhaps?
  - EGreg 5y ago
    None. Just invite Russia into NATO. Why not? Pride? Cant sell as many weapons anymore? I think many war hawks in the West just want to cut Russia down to size, one less “superpower” to worry about. If it is invited into NATO them the whole raison d’etre of NATO kind of disappears: the big bad enemy is only Russia.
    - drran 5y ago
      Don't worry. Territories of Russian Federation will join the NATO.
      - EGreg 5y ago
        Yes, that’s what many people want. To just break up the Russian federation, they hate that it’s so big. Personally, I don’t care too much for imperialism. But we all know how well USA or China would react to secession. USA’s bloodiest was began to “preserve the union”. EU and USSR was actually kind of nice to have a way to let some members secede.
    - mopsi 5y ago
      NATO is not Russia, members don't get included against their will. To become a member, a country must apply and agree to settle disputes using peaceful means. Does not look like Russia has any interest in that.
      - EGreg 5y ago
        It looks to me like Russia has interest in that. Russia has been bringing up its geopolitical security concerns and bright lines consistently for years and no one in NATO cared enough to “appease” them in any lasting way. It called on Ukraine for years to continue talks w the separatists based on the Minsk agreements but they didn’t. What peaceful means does Russia have available to them? They had a referendum in Crimea where no one was killed — seems far more peaceful than USA or China, the other two “superpowers”. What if USA agrees to settle disputes using peaceful means but then, ya know, just goes and bullies people? It is a founding member of NATO. What should Russia do if Georgia is massacring separatists in Ossetia? (Similar situation to Ukraine.) Just stand by and watch? Should Georgia be inducted into NATO but Russia not? What should anyone do if Pakistan is massacring separtists in Bangladesh? Just curious what is the standard really for when a country should intervene.
        mopsi 5y ago
        > It called on Ukraine for years to continue talks w the separatists Come on, man. This is such bullshit it's just insulting. How many "separatists" will there be left after Russia stops paying their wages?
- roca 5y ago
  Russia in NATO would by no means "literally eliminate a whole host of terrible scenarios". Putin would still be in power, in fact he'd probably have swallowed up more territory by now using his ability to paralyze NATO, and he'd be no less likely to use nukes than he is today.
  - EGreg 5y ago
    I have not seen Russia post-USSR be interested in expanding and swallowing territory. Rather, I have seen them try to hold on to what they have, as more and more republics want to secede. We all know how USA dealt with secession… I honestly think Russia is motivated only by NATO being a long term geopolitical existential threat. And what it sees as the wresting of its allies by “the West”. Honestly, seeing how nations fare after trusting the USA (eg Kurds) I can’t really blame them for that. What I do blame them for is sucking at public dialogue and messaging and then lashing out militarily. I blame the USA and others for that last part too. But at least the USA is good at meesaging so people know what we are concerned about. Remember, after all, this is the prevailing sentiment around the world every year: https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-democracy-russia-china-global-poll https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/05/us-threat-demo... (I bet that poll will change this year, though)
    - roca 5y ago
      South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Donetsk, and Luhansk weren't part of Russia post-USSR. > And what it sees as the wresting of its allies by “the West”. Honestly, seeing how nations fare after trusting the USA (eg Kurds) I can’t really blame them for that. I think the USA treated the Kurds poorly, but how is that relevant to this? The Baltics were eager to join NATO and are very happy they did. Are you arguing that Russia invaded Ukraine so that they wouldn't join NATO and be treated badly by America in the future?
      - EGreg 5y ago
        Honestly I think it’s basically a combination of four things at once: Separatists overreacting to news of civil war in Odessa and moving to declare independence from Ukraine Kyiv blowing the separatists out of proportion and sending its army in a protracted siege war against them instead of sitting down based on Minsk agreements Putin blowing the “fascist Kyiv government genociding Russians” thing out of proportion and sending his army in a blitzkrieg to destroy Ukrainian capabilities instead of sitting down with Zelenskiy’s government at the highest levels NATO ignoring Russia’s repeated concerns over the years about expansion and surrounding it with the same kind of thing that made JFK ready to go to war during the Cuban missile crisis Basically on every level, sending an army backfires. Better to just not react with violence and use diplomacy. But seems that cooler heads do NOT prevail